What's wrong with my poor knife?

OK gang,

I just found this forum yesterday and this is my first post of probably many. First off:

Reason to haze me and poke fun at me--I have a Shun! It's an 8in Chef. Ha!

Reason to forgive me and think that deep down inside I might just be an alright guy--I'm ready for an upgrade! (we'll get to that in another post)

So, back to the Shun. If you look at it really close under the light, there are a series of tiny chips running the entire length of the blade, from heel to tip. I have taken it to my Norton 1000/4000 whetstone a number of times, and even to a 220 one day and can't seem to get them out. Could the chips be from using my honing steel? Are Shuns included in the category of knives that you should never steel? The chips are very small, probably fractions of a millimeter; but substantial enough that when someone picks up my knife and looks at it close, they say something like, "Jesus, what the @&*# did you do to this thing?"

I'll let the experts chime in, but I wanted to say welcome to the and Blade.

Do you chop on a hard surface? A brittle blade could be damaged by that. Also don't take this as gospel, not a knife expert here.

Shuns are some very nice knives. With a little TLC, it should be a great kitchen companion.

ScotchDave said:

Do you chop on a hard surface? A brittle blade could be damaged by that. Also don't take this as gospel, not a knife expert here.

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This could be on cause. Don't use a ceramic or glass cutting board they will ruin the edge of your knife.

I steel all of my knives and I have some pretty hard knives. My hardest knife has a RC of 64 which is pretty hard. I steel my knives very gently. Not like what you see on TV, I only use the weight of the knife. If you are aggressively steeling your knife this could be the reason that you edge is chipped. Do you have a smooth steel or a rough or lined/grooved (lines or groves run from the tip to the handle of the steel) steel? If you have a lined/grooved steel I would put it aside.

Something else to think of. You should be able to get the chips out with a 220 grit stone. You may need to remove more material in order to get the chips out.

Shuns are good knives. Good steel, high RC and they are locally available.

Shuns are out of my league, but I think Sullybob is right as it pertains to the steel. Ham handed use of the steel will really ruin an edge. If you think about the actual contact area while steeling, it is extremely small. a couple pounds of force is amplified to many hundred of pounds per square inch on a fragile and tiny area. rolling the edge or if brittle, chipping it would certainly be a possibility.

I use plastic cutting boards that I am sure the edge sinks into a bit. I have a couple wooden boards that I like, but I don't like to put them in the dishwasher which has a sanitize feature that I appreciate.

Well,

Thanks for welcoming me first off--I think this just might turn into a daily hobby of mine to surf around on the B&B forum and learn some new stuff. I think it probably has to do with aggressive steeling (which in the past I've been no stranger to.) I've always used either wood or restaurant grade plastic cutting boards. I would never dare let any of my knives touch glass, metal, ceramic, cardboard boxes or anything other than food, a nice cutting board, or a whetstone. I'll try running over the stone again (soaking as we speak) and then get a new, smooth steel.

Just to barely tip my toes into this one, In the next few months I would like to treat myself to a nice gyuto. Either a 210 or a 240, a blade that is razor sharp and easy to sharpen, and nothing more than $200. I've heard a lot of really really great things about the Hiromoto AS series. What else should I be sizing up? I heard the Misono UX10's are over-rated. Guide me my brethrens!

PandyFackler said:

Just to barely tip my toes into this one, In the next few months I would like to treat myself to a nice gyuto. Either a 210 or a 240, a blade that is razor sharp and easy to sharpen, and nothing more than $200. I've heard a lot of really really great things about the Hiromoto AS series. What else should I be sizing up? I heard the Misono UX10's are over-rated. Guide me my brethrens!

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Sounds as if you're already practicing good habits.

As for the knives you mentioned, I have examples of both, and neither are overrated. Misono (all lines) has some of the best fit and finish in the business short of Nenox, and Hiromoto has many fans of its AS line. Great steel, but it does expose a few millimetres of carbon, the notion of which you may love or hate. Other top notch choices in the <$200 range include Hattori, Masamoto, Suisin, Ryusen/Blazen, Glestain, and others. A producer of pretty and well balanced, inexpensive knives is Togiharu, available at www.korin.com , and bargains abound at www.japanesechefsknife.com , both great places to deal with.

Oh my, oh my. I have to get this out of my system; I feel like running up and down Main Street and telling every stranger I see. And I feel like telling you guys too because well, it has to do with that whole blades thing.

I just had the most ethereal, spiritual, celestial sharpening experience of my life. Before I get into it, I must thank OUCH for his sharpening thread. I had been doing it completely bass ackwards for the last ten years and I think I'm just now getting a handle on how to do it the right way. I sat down (which is new--see the spiritual and ethereal crap above,) started with the 1000 grit, then wiped the blade off and went to the 4000. I must say I confidently and comfortably kept a pretty damn consistent angle the whole time. Did each side of the blade in four sections, starting with the heel and moving up to the tip, constantly splashing fresh water on the stone. Alright, enough babbling and bragging--the thing's a @*%$#& razor blade! Oh and to boot, I got 90% of the chips out! This is what forums like this are all about, baby. Thank you OUCH and thank you to everyone else for their input. Now I feel like I have to lay in bed and smoke a cigarette.

Toodles

I'm sorry, but I don't have any experience with kitchen knives.

Say, weren't you almost in a coma from doing the Bossa Nova? And the Funky Cold Medina?

TorzJohnson said:

Say, weren't you almost in a coma from doing the Bossa Nova? And the Funky Cold Medina?

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Yeah, and eating cotton candy from the garbage can

I would agree that the aggressive steeling is the likely culprit. Shun knives are very good, with a justified reputation as long as they are cared for properly.

As Ouch points out in his videos, there is way too much showmanship and misinformation on TV in steeling knives. The only man I have ever felt comfortable allowing to steel my Japanese knives was my father, with 60 years experience as a butcher. He could make that steel literally sing. I learned the alternative the hard way when my sister moved in with us - she tried to emulate the TV chefs, and put a whole mess of dings and nicks in my prized Hattori knife by smashing the edge into the steel.

Japanese knives are much harder and therefore more brittle than German, and do best with honing on a fine stone. Very carefully, mind you. Done well, these are excellent knives which will keep a razor sharp edge for a very long time.

Having said that, I will confess to using a glass-smooth steel on my knives in between honings to 'stand up' the edge - but here's the kicker - I use a VERY light pressure, and do it backwards (edge trailing) and very slowly. Works quite well, and will not cause any chips or dings. But, this is not a recommended technique - use at your own risk.

And bottom line, nobody here is going to flame you for using a Shun knife. Excellent taste in cutlery!

So I'm still a little confused about honing. I think I'm going to do away with steels after what I've been reading on knife forums. So what is one to do? For example, I just stoned my knife last night and it's razor sharp. Now I'm going into work in a couple of hours, and if I cut thirty pounds of vegetables and lose a bit of the edge, am I supposed to take it to the whetstone again? In other words, does a fine grit whetstone more or less replace a honing steel, or is there a quicker and easier way to just re-align the edge on the fly?

as a qualifier, I don't use my kitchen knives professionally.

Like Jonathan, When I use my steel, I use very light pressure with the edge trailing. I beleive that the use of the steel in this manner is akin to stropping. that is to straighten out micro imperfections to hold it over till the next honing. It may be subjective, but I feel a marked improvement after a couple strokes with the Steel. My steel is very old and smooth. It was my grandmothers, who did cook professionally, but not in any fancy or high zoot capacity.

I don't have any Japanese knives. Mine are German and Spanish and from the USA. So if the Japanese steel is that much harder than mine, maybe this steeling technique does not apply.

I cook in a pro kitchen and I steel my Japanese knives. Some people would probably want to burn me at the stake for this

I have a smooth steel. Smooth, like chrome on a bumper. Their isn't any grit to it at all. I also have a ceramic rod that I also use for honing. I have no idea what the grit of the ceramic is, I inherited it from my Uncle. If I had to guess I would say above 2,000 maybe even as high as 4k. I use it also.

If you need to realign the knifes edge steeling is one way to do it. Honing is another way. I like to use a steel because I think that it prolongs the life of the edge. I know guys who sharpen their knives every single day, and a couple who sharpen multiple times during a shift. They want the edge to have the just came off the stone cutting ability, they also do a lot of work with sushi so they really need a razor edge all the time.

You can also strop your knife edge back into shape.

To answer your question. A fine grit water stone can replace a steel. If you want it to...... All steeling does is to realign the very cutting edge and help to smooth it out. Using a fine grit stone is going to do that and remove some metal from the knife. If you want the edge to feel like it just came off of a 8k stone then they only way to get that feeling is to take it to an 8k stone, steeling will not feel the same and the knife wont cut the same. I love how my knives cut when they are fresh off the stones but I don't make the time to take them to the stones every day. I have other things to do. Steeling allows me to keep my knife in very good shape for a long time. I have gone over a month with out sharpening my Misono or my Hattori, both knives are my main work knives.

ginantonix said:

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As Ouch points out in his videos, there is way too much showmanship and misinformation on TV in steeling knives.
...Snip

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Where are the videos?

There was a thread about this a while ago - try to search it, I honestly can't remember what it was called. Ouch posted a number of videos with comments that demonstrated the wrong way to treat knives, as well as a couple of excellent videos of the proper way to hone a quality Japanese knife.

Perhaps someone else can provide the link?

Ah, here it is...

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25522&highlight=sharpening

Do not use a grooved steel, period
Smooth steels are great
Ceramic 'steels' aren't steels, they're sharpeners

If it dulls, you either strop it or touch up on your finest stone