Heretical Observations?

[android]

After a few weeks of using DE razors, I am wondering (HERESY!) if I actually get a closer, less irritating shave from my Gillette Mach 3 Turbo. Here's what I've done so far, please advise if I am doing something wrong.

First of all, the Equipment.

Gillette Fatboy, set to 2 to 5. With Derby or Israeli blade.

Gillette TTO (black hande) with same blades.

Proraso cream, C&E Best badger brush. Shower first and put conditioner on beard.

Proraso afterhave balm. Plus alum block.

Next, the Operator.

My beard is very heavy, grows fast, and by nite I have severe 5 oclock shadow historically. My skin is medium sensitive. With the Mach 3 I never have nicks or skin irritation. With the DE's I have a general burning feeling after shaving.

The Results:

I find it hard to really get a close shave with the DE razors. I can get a decent shave, but not a close close shave. If I try to use more pressure, I get minor nicks, or irritated, but still don't get close. More passes, same.

I do N-S, E-W, and S-N passes. The hardest parts to get are my neck under the top of the jawline, and the thick beard parts that are on either side of my chin.

So what am I doing wrong? I'm waiting for a Schick Injector from ebay, and also a Gem, and I've already got some teflon Gem blades and Feather injector blades for those, so maybe I'll get a better shave from different technology.

Should I try feather DE blades? Or a different razor? I bought a Tech after reading the other thread (damn this forum!!!$$$$)

Different soaps?

The one thing I can say is that by applying wetshaving methods to my Mach 3, it has greatly improved that shave!

Heresy is this...I am wondering if I should box up all of the razors and blades and go back to the good old trusty Mach 3. Please convince me not to, as I greatly enjoy my new obsession....

[Leisureguy]

I think you would find this interesting.

It will take a while to learn the technique. A tough beard and sensitive skin cries out (at least, to me) for a Merkur Slant with Feather blades---but your technique needs to be good for that.

You have the right stuff, and you seem to be doing the right things. So far as I can tell, it's a matter of practice. Maybe someone else can see something that I can't at this point.

[jduffy]

Horses for courses and go with what you know.

Don't beat yourself up if the DE doesn't work for you.

The Fat Boy and the Israeli is a very nice combo for me but I have a medium beard at the most.

Just curious, how long does it take you to shave with the DE and how long with the M3?

[Jim]

As LG said you seem to be on the right track. I need more than 3 passes to reduce my beard to BBS and I demand a lot from my lather because of that. I think what it comes down to is technique, If your face is burning after shaving nothing can adjust that but you- the man holding the razor.

You said you have a tech, That a good razor to perfect your technique with, a derby or a feather for 3 or so shaves per blade should do fine... stick with it for a week straight,1 soap/cream 1 razor 1 type of blade. You may have read this before but reread it now that you have been shaving for awhile.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[android]

It takes me a little longer for the DE. The main difference is that with the M3 I can go a lot faster, do longer strokes, and do buffing strokes without cutting myself. Against the grain works much faster with the M3. Even when I have used the DE, I often end up touching up under the neck and along the jaw with the M3.

I've got some feathers coming, we will see how they do.

I really want the whole single edge thing to work better, as it allows me to fuel an inexpensive acquisition disorder that is fun. But as a logical person, if the end result is not better, the call of the M3 may beckon.

[ratcheer]

I have only been using a DE for about six weeks. The first two or three weeks were a learning experience, but now I am getting fantastically close shaves with it. So far, I have used American Personna, Merkur, and Israeli blades.

I used a Mach 3 Turbo ever since they came out, and a Mach 3 before that, and a Sensor Excel before that, etc, etc, all the way back to the Trac II around 1970. I never got shaves approaching the closeness I am getting now.

Tim

[Pete]

I can relate, android. I have used a Mach 3, a Schick Quattro, and a Fusion, as well as several DE's, and Schick Injectors. I've had great success with the Mach 3... perhaps more than any other cartridge razor. I have used a Mach 3 longer than anything so far, and I am absolutely convinced that a Mach 3 cartridge used a couple of time is actually superior to a brand new one. This is the only logical explanation I can come up with, and I don't know that there's any true science to this:

When you use a brand new cartridge, the blade closest to the front does the majority of the cutting. Naturally, this will be the first blade of the three to become dull. After a few shaves, the front blade becomes inefficient at cutting the hair, and instead pulls and tugs the hairs... much like a dulling DE blade does. So the front blade pulls the hair up, and the second blade does the cutting... much like the, "lift and cut", concept Norelco has been pushing for years. Again, I may be WAY off here, and perhaps this is simply my imagination... but when you think about it, it seems logical.

I've always acheived a good, consistent all-around shave with a Mach 3, but here are some parts of my face that a Mach 3 (or any other cartridge, for that matter) simply WILL NOT CUT no matter how many times I go over it. This area is most noticable around the corners of my mouth, going towards my chin. I can manage to get this are smooth with a DE and an injector.

I'm convinced that there are pros/cons with ALL razors, but after using a DE, I believe having ultimate control of the blade angle is most beneficial.I also believe those guys who have been shaving for DE's for years that say the get a closer shave with a DE than they ever could acheive with a cartridge. Unfortunately, I'm not at that point yet... but I'm trying.

[peacefrog]

I dunno Pete. Given the distance from the front edge of that leading blade to the front edge of the next blade, that first blade would need to pull that whisker out a heck of a long way to still be pulling while the second blade is cutting. I think it's more like doing several passes at once.

[Agent86]

android,

Give the safety razor more time.

In the last 6 months I've learned more about how my beard grows, and the techniques required to get a close shave(while keeping my skin in good condition) than in my past 21 years of shaving. The DE requires technique and practice, the cartridge razor does not. If you have the time and enjoy the process, traditional wet shaving is the way to go. Once you get it down, you'll never look back.

[ouch]

You are hereby charged with heresy. Heresy by thought, heresy by deed. Twooooooo charges of heresy.

[bearbeard]

I had this same exact problem. I could shave in less than 2 minutes with a mach 3 doing two passes n-s and s-n. I had no irritation and my shaves were fairly close and consistant. If I had a special occasion and wanted a really smooth shave I shaved 4 times in 4 different directions and that seemed to get it really good. I too have been irritated by DE shaving from time to time...it seems that no matter how many passes I do or different directions or even a touch and cut I can not seem to get a very close shave consistently. Heck even on the touch and cut going over the area I just touched, I can't seem to get at those whiskers.

But here are the conclusions that I came up with so that I would not quit and go back to the M3.

1) I realized that I had been shaving with a Mach3 since its inception. That is way longer than I have been using a DE....and the learning curve on the M3 is basically 0. While the DE learning curve is drastically a bit longer. So I know I need to have patience. But will it be worth it in the long run? Bodybuilders did not get big by just picking up some weights and lifting, they had to learn how to lift properly and even then everyone is different and what works for one may not work for another, It takes time and experimentation....and lots of patience.....small gains here and there.

2) The cost of the DE blades are a big bonus to try and stick it out, at around a quarter for a blade its hard to go back to buying what is it now a box of 4 blades for about $10 dollars. (ok so maybe I am stretching it a bit there) but cost is a huge factor to stick it out.

3) Personal satisfaction!!! I was never satisfied with a close shave using the M3 the way I that I am with a close shave using a DE. It is just a better feeling. And I cant explain it but my beard grows back differently using a DE than it does using the M3. I Am still trying to feel my beard as it grows back and trying to figure out exactly why that is. But my skin feels alot better with the DE shaves. (not along the lines of irritation but in quality healthy skin)
With the M3 blades I got the same exact shave consistently day in and day out. With the DE not so much. It really is a different feel to it every single day, but on those days I nail it OH MAN what a feeling! ( Its like the first time you drive a stick shift and have to get started on a steep hill with a car right on your bumber. With the automatic transmission it was a piece of cake, with the manual you really have to think about it. But the satisfaction of being able to do it manually is much better. ) And my wife agrees that my shaves now are closer on those days than they ever were with the M3. I am getting better and better the more I do it. This forum has really helped with the knowledge level and helping me to improve. (I have only been DE shaving now for a few months and I have noticed small improvements over that time. I think I am finally starting to see that end of the tunnel.) Heck I started dragging the DE across my face like it was a M3, I did not know any better until I read this forum.


And I have to believe that the more I shave with the DE the more consistent my shaves will be, and better than the m3 shaves. Besides it is very very satisfying to be able to do something that most people in the world are not doing. and won't be able to do until they put in the time, hard work, study and experimenting necessary to achieve the shaves that we will be getting consistently in a few more months.

A couple more things.
Sounds like your beard is similar to mine. I was using Merkur blades. the Personnas were horrible for my face. I tried the feathers and haven't looked back. It was a drastic improvement. I have had a much easier time of it since that day.
I also found that filling the sink with hot water to rinse my razor and shutting off the faucet, making sure it was quiet when I shaved helped drastically. You may not think so, but just hearing the shave has made a huge difference for me. You may allready be doing this.

Best of luck to ya.
and Patience, Patience, Patience don't give up

[Stauff]

Heresy! To the stake!

[rikrdo]

I find it hard to really get a close shave with the DE razors. I can get a decent shave, but not a close close shave.

"I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries. Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time !"


But seriously.....Patience here is key.
I would stop buying for awhile (herecy on its' own BTW) and take it slow. There is a learning curve and it may be slowed by the fact you are using so many different combos of everything.
Practice with a fixed set of hardware for a week and learn its' pros and cons.
I think this is part of the deal...the challenge of it all.
Maybe thats why I like smoking a pipe so much as well ??

Good luck and stick with it.
Well worth the struggle now.

[ouch]

Oh yeah? Then why would I always keep fifty blends of tobacco open?

[rikrdo]

ONLY 50, huh ??

(have you an op on GLP Fillmore...BTW?)

[android]

Okay, I've decided, no new razors for a bit. (Of course, to celebrate finishing my taxes yesterday, I went to the local Shaving Kiosk and bought a Futur!!) Now I will experiment with all the combos I have or will soon have;

--Gillette vintage TTO's with Derby, Feather, or Israeli
--Schick injectors with standard injector blades or Feather ProGuard blades
--Gem Micromatic with Ted Pella Gem blade (carefully!)
--Gillette Tech with same as above blades
--Futur with Merkur, Derby, Feather or Israeli blades
--Mach 3 with blades kept at 0 degrees Kelvin in liquid
hydrogen NOT!


English creams, Italian creams, horseradish, mayonaisse, butter (thanks Kramer!), and all the other combos possible.

I should have a definitive answer by....November....2010!

Okay, now I get it. It doesn't matter if I get a closer easier shave with my M3. That's no fun. This is like mad scientist stuff, mixing up a batch in the bathroom lab, boooooooom! Every morning an adventure. Will I slice my nose off? Will I get a BBS? This is turning a chore into a hobby! (Now why can't there be a vacuumgeek forum, then vacuuming would be equally fun.)

Android goes off the deep end into ultimate shavegeekery!

[Pete]

I dunno Pete. Given the distance from the front edge of that leading blade to the front edge of the next blade, that first blade would need to pull that whisker out a heck of a long way to still be pulling while the second blade is cutting. I think it's more like doing several passes at once.

You might be right... but I can't come up with a logical explanation as to why I seemingly get a better shave with a cartridge that has been used a few times.

I do believe you, in that it is like making several passes at once. This is most noticable when I experiemented with the Fusion. Trying to do a second pass with the Fusion tears my face up!

[bearbeard]

With the cartridge I have to rinse after every swipe. The De I can keep going for enough swipes to do a whole cheek. Because its a real razor!!!!
And it is fun, Android you hit it right on the head. Its the hobby of it, the fun with it, and the results I think will come in time, but they are secondary to the actual shave. It is and art and a science!!!

[jnich67]

"I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries. Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time !"


But seriously.....Patience here is key.
I would stop buying for awhile (herecy on its' own BTW) and take it slow. There is a learning curve and it may be slowed by the fact you are using so many different combos of everything.
Practice with a fixed set of hardware for a week and learn its' pros and cons.
I think this is part of the deal...the challenge of it all.
Maybe thats why I like smoking a pipe so much as well ??

Good luck and stick with it.
Well worth the struggle now.

I'd agree with Rick here. Stick to one set up and get good at it. I also found it helped, for both DE and straights, to shoot for a comfortable shave first. The closeness will follow.

Jordan

[catatonic]

yep, that's how I'm going with it...I found a blade that's not as good of a shave, but is more comfortable...so I'm sticking to that until I get my form up.