Are kidding me??

I'm not a person to post my political views on here but, this one, I can't let go. This article is about a golf course that's owned and operated by the United Auto Workers (UAW) union. I don't really care that it's on FOX news. It could easily be on MSNBC or CNN, that's not the point. The fact that American tax payer money is going to bail these companies out and they can still afford a $33 million dollar golf course is NUTS!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,472304,00.html

I agree that it's ludicrous, but you are aware that the UAW and the auto companies are two very different things, aren't you?

TimmyBoston said:

I agree that it's ludicrous, but you are aware that the UAW and the auto companies are two very different things, aren't you?

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Yep... the CEOs (employees of the company just like the union members) of the failing companies are some of the richest men in the country... are you outraged about them and their personal belongings too? You're arguably right to feel that way... but that's completely besides the point and it's feels like this post is somewhat "piling-on" regarding our dometstic auto companies.

These companies themselves really are teetering... they've sold off many if not all of their unneccessary assets... they don't own luxury items like golf courses that's for sure. GM owns the Reinessance Center in Detroit, which is pretty luxurious, but selling that right now would be at a huge loss if they could even find a buyer at all. I'm against bailouts myself... but I think they really do need it... and competitively, they are fighting tooth and nail against foreign competitors that are at least partially backed by their foreign governments essentially fighting an unfair fight to begin with. In addition to that, our federal government just handed over this huge, golden egg to the large, failing and corrupt banks with virtually ZERO oversight. WHY?!

The auto industry suppots a TON more jobs in this country than do the banks. They (the banks) are linked more directly to our economy than the auto companies... but truly, I believe the auto company bailout should have had MORE emphasis than the bank bailouts, and maybe INSTEAD of the banks. Let the banks fail... the government insurance covers the customers (with limits to exteme balances) and then new banks spring-up. Not nearly the number of lost jobs as would happen with GM and Ford and Chrysler going belly-up... that is truly a VERY scary nightmare scenario... for the entire country. I'm also pretty shocked at the hoops and dog/pony shows the feds are forcing upon the autos to JUSTIFY their need. The banks didn't have to do anything, while the auto companies are being strangled, shanken by the throat and dragged through the streets. Its disgusting political posturing and the fate of millions of jobs hangs in the balance. Yes many of them are unionized... and they all make a very good living. Frankly I'm happy for them. If the companies can remain successfull and pay their employees (unionized or not) a great wage and benefits... well I think that should really be the ideal for every large corporation in the country. I think a big part of the problem is that this is all REALLY BAD TIMING too.

For the record, no, I am not a member of UAW, nor is my employment in anyway tied to the success or failure of Ford, GM or Chrysler... unless their failure caused a tremendous loss of tax funding to the state and my own division had to cut my position as a result (highly unlikely and not a legitmate concern ... public health).

well,... time to go lather some soap or something... very relaxing.

TimmyBoston said:

I agree that it's ludicrous, but you are aware that the UAW and the auto companies are two very different things, aren't you?

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Yes, well aware of that fact, I just had to post a link to the article after I read it.

Ironman06 said:

nor is my employment in anyway tied to the success or failure of Ford, GM or Chrysler...

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But the failure of those auto giants would uproot the very ground our country was built on! If they collapse, they'll bring the entire economy crashing down with them and millions will suffer! All sectors would be affected - it'd be the end of democracy as we know it! Anarchy would abound! The world would be in total cha...

...

Ahem...

That is... if you believe all the hype

(Deep Breath)
There is 1 main reason US carmakers are in trouble- their products aren't up to scratch. Subsidies? That's another massive can of worms......American rice anyone?

scottish steve said:

(Deep Breath)
There is 1 main reason US carmakers are in trouble- their products aren't up to scratch.

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Yeah, pretty much agree with that.

In recent years, the quality of American cars has been excellent. I drive a Dodge van right now, and before that a F-250 truck.

But let's face it- in terms of producing high quality vehicles, we got our a$$es completely kicked by Japan and others for a very, very long time. So we start making good cars for a few years and expect everybody to start buying American? That's a pipe dream.

Even if the current quality of American cars was actually much better than foreign, the damage has already been done. Foreign superiority is permanently burned into too many peoples' brains.

The "big three" are using little pieces of gum to patch the dike, and it ain't gonna work.

Zach V. said:

Yeah, pretty much agree with that.

In recent years, the quality of American cars has been excellent. I drive a Dodge van right now, and before that a F-250 truck.

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Did you see Jeremy Clarkson's review of that Ford pickup on Top Gear? Wait, do you get Top Gear in The US? I think he said they had problems with network execs after he honestly reviewed a car which he thought was rubbish, so it might not be broadcast there. Anyway, he absolutely slated this Ford. The only cars from the US that have had really good reviews I've seen are the GT, the new Corvette...the ZR1? -and something else. But in the main, there's just no way you can compare them to the products from Germany and Japan. Look at the Nissan GT-R for Pete's sake. £50k for that? Incredible.

scottish steve said:

Did you see Jeremy Clarkson's review of that Ford pickup on Top Gear?

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No, I haven't. All I know is that I drove a 1994 F-250 for 4 years, when I was still working in construction/masonry trades and hauling stuff around. It performed very well, comfortable, easy to drive, everything. It easily handled heavy loads for many a work day, and I never had a single problem with it. If I was still working in the trades, I'd buy another one in a heartbeat.

How long did Clarkson drive one? An hour? A day even? Did he actually use the truck for its intended purposes?

I take all critics' and reviewers' opinions with a grain of salt

I had really hoped this thread had died. Sadly I was wrong.

If indeed the UAW owns a luxury golf course I think the first question that has to be asked is does it turn a profit for it's members! If it does then the profits probably help pay for the members pension funds and other items. You have to take a look at the rate of return on the investment. If I was a member of the UAW I would be tickled if my union dues went to pay for an investment that had a positive return these days. I bet any money that was invested in the market have taken a hit these days. I consider myself to be a decent investor and still I have taken a 35% hit on my investments. The full story needs to be told.
It is kind of like the auto exec's taking a private plane to Washington to attend the hearings. The second time they went in private cars; but you know what those planes that are owned by the company was still sitting on the runway, the pilots and any associated ground crew was still on the payroll so not that much money was saved.

TimmyBoston said:

I had really hoped this thread had died. Sadly I was wrong.

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Laughing. Yeah, I hear you.

Topics like this render a true barbershop atmosphere, though. Lots of spin-off conversations.

Next, a Ford vs Chevy argument will ensue

Zach V. said:

No, I haven't. All I know is that I drove a 1994 F-250 for 4 years, when I was still working in construction/masonry trades and hauling stuff around. It performed very well, comfortable, easy to drive, everything. It easily handled heavy loads for many a work day, and I never had a single problem with it. If I was still working in the trades, I'd buy another one in a heartbeat.

How long did Clarkson drive one? An hour? A day even? Did he actually use the truck for its intended purposes?

I take all critics' and reviewers' opinions with a grain of salt

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He drove it for a day and was horrified at the atrocious build-quality, the fact that the brakes were utterly inadequate, the interior was shockingly bad & the steering had so much give in it, it felt like a 1960's Land Rover. He felt actively unsafe in it. This model (possibly an F150) was at the time the fastest-selling car in the world and was supposed to be top-of-the-line. Even in a works vehicle these flaws are inexcusable and more to the point, confusing, given the Ford Focus is brilliant to drive, well-built and good-looking, as is the Ford Transit- made by the same company but for different markets. As a European, I found it strange that the Merkur Vision kept being called "the Cadillac of razors" in the reviews- Cadillacs are in no way considered symbolic of quality in the EU.

scottish steve said:

Did you see Jeremy Clarkson's review of that Ford pickup on Top Gear? Wait, do you get Top Gear in

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No, I did not see Jeremy review the F-150, and Yes, we do get Top Gear here on BBC America.

I think it's a great show when I remember to watch it.

But even Jeremy, Richard & James argue all the time about makes and models. So car reviews, like any reviews are quite subjective.

These companies need to be restructured from the top down. Many people are WAY overpaid, and I lay quite a bit of that blame with the UAW. Either a reduction in overhead or the whole company goes belly up. It's the way of capitalism, and it's not new. The taxpayers should not be saddled with more debt because of bad business practices. Why should people who make $25,000 a year be bailing out those who make over $100,000, through their increased tax burden. I'm not seeing the payoff in the long run...

They are, but there are some unequivocally bad and good cars out there. You see the Vietnam Special? It was only shown this Sunday on UK TV and it was probly better than the African Special. I bet tourism there increases because of it.

scottish steve said:

They are, but...

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No, they aren't. I believe they're quite serious.

big1096 said:

These companies need to be restructured from the top down. Many people are WAY overpaid, and I lay quite a bit of that blame with the UAW. Either a reduction in overhead or the whole company goes belly up. It's the way of capitalism, and it's not new. The taxpayers should not be saddled with more debt because of bad business practices. Why should people who make $25,000 a year be bailing out those who make over $100,000, through their increased tax burden. I'm not seeing the payoff in the long run...

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I suppose you feel the same way--even more strongly--about the banking and AIG bailouts? Those companies' employees continue to make incomes the rest of us can't even dream of.

By the way, the hourly wages of UAW-represented employees of American-owned auto manufacturers are not much higher than those of non-union American employees of foreign-owned auto manufacturers, all of whom receive massive subsidies and tax breaks from the states where they have located their American factories. For some strange reason, the senators from those states voted against helping the American companies.

The real difference between American labor costs and those of their foreign competitors comes from health insurance and pension benefits. The foreign employees of the foreign companies get those benefits from the taxpayers of foreign countries, and their American factories are too new to have produced many retirees, but GM, Ford, and Chrysler provide medical care to millions of Americans.