microscope

nev · Oct 23, 2005

Hello,
Just new to this forum. My main interest at the moment is sharpening and this forum and others have been a revelation.i'm might get an interest in shaving with st8 later but i reckon that is a hard skill to learn.i always wondered why my knives etc although sharp would only cut one side of a sheet of newspaper and not the serrated edge.after buying a razor it glides through ridicously easy although i dont feel it is as sharp as my knife.its a real eye opener how geometry (i assume, my knife isnt carbon steel) works.
well now to my question. under the microscope my razor has scratches, small nicks and a gold line and it still no where near as sharp as it should be.i'm using a red rouge paste from a chipcarving site but i find i can only go so sharp even with light pressure and what im wondering is if i get finer paste (i confess i'm using the cheapo method i that saw on another forum namely denim as the strop, sandpaper as the hone) thats its automatic that it will get sharper or does eventually technique and equipment ie no norton stone no leather strop catch up with you.i like to try to get it to pass the hair hanging test.
thanks for any help
nev

Laz in Tampa · Oct 23, 2005

Newspaper has a "grain" structure to it. It tears easily one way, (up and down) but across the page, ti tears unevenly. That might have more to do with it than the quality of your edge.

You might consider a coarser paste. From how you described your edge, it sounds like you need some more work to make the edge bevel uniform and correct. Finer pastes will just polish an imperfect edge, and the nicks will still be there.

If you're going the cheapo route, get some 1000 or 2000 grit sandpaper in the auto parts store. Use that until you see a uniform, straight flat bevel and edge under the microscope. Then go to your rouge paste.

nev · Oct 23, 2005

thanks laz,
i understand now the importance of having a good edge before polishing , i have sheet of 2000 sandpaper, european though and i'll use it with the microscope. do i need to have very low pressure to get a perfect edge because i would use a light pressure to keep it steady. do you think the red rouge will be sufficient for the hanging hair test?i also have a yellowstone block but have found it very hard to get any on the denim. that perfect edge is tricky to get and maybe i'm using too much pressure and should take longer to hone? i do see on a european website a small belgian stone very reasonably priced grit 6000 although id prefer to use sandpaper so i could use it on other tools ie gouge.http://www.dick-gmbh.de/

thanks laz its a great advantage to have a facility such as this,
nev

nev · Oct 23, 2005

just to add under higher magnification(300-400 the edge looks like scratches intervening and a slight wobbly edge.its hard to know whether a finer paste or to return to honing ?

Rik · Oct 23, 2005

nev said:
...under the microscope my razor has scratches, small nicks and a gold line and it still no where near as sharp as it should be.

Laz,
Could this be an indication of an over honed edge?

Joe Lerch · Oct 23, 2005

nev said:
Hello,
Just new to this forum. My main interest at the moment is sharpening and this forum and others have been a revelation.i'm might get an interest in shaving with st8 later but i reckon that is a hard skill to learn.i always wondered why my knives etc although sharp would only cut one side of a sheet of newspaper and not the serrated edge.after buying a razor it glides through ridicously easy although i dont feel it is as sharp as my knife.its a real eye opener how geometry (i assume, my knife isnt carbon steel) works.
well now to my question. under the microscope my razor has scratches, small nicks and a gold line and it still no where near as sharp as it should be.i'm using a red rouge paste from a chipcarving site but i find i can only go so sharp even with light pressure and what im wondering is if i get finer paste (i confess i'm using the cheapo method i that saw on another forum namely denim as the strop, sandpaper as the hone) thats its automatic that it will get sharper or does eventually technique and equipment ie no norton stone no leather strop catch up with you.i like to try to get it to pass the hair hanging test.
thanks for any help
nev

If your main interest is sharpening, you must have some stones. Some may be useable for razors. The 1K stone or sandpaper is only useful for putting an initial edge on a very dull razor. To use a razor you'll need a leather strop, which is used before you shave.

To restore razors, most people use a Norton 4K/8K waterstone. If you didn't want to buy one of them you would still need one stone at about 6K. The jump from 1K to 6K might be a little extreme for setting up a razor, and would have to work very hard to get it done with just the 6K, so something in the range of 3K would be very useful for those times you need to re-form an edge. There are some coarser barber hones you can use that way.

Finer work above 6K can be done with a finishing barber hones. You can get baber hones on Ebay or from Tilly (Redtrade99.com). If you really wanted to do this on the cheap, there are some two sided baber hones around that provide a coarser side to create an edge and a fine side to finish the edge.

You can also get multi-side paddle strops on which you can place diamond paste. Afairly wide range of such pastes is available.

Laz in Tampa · Oct 24, 2005

nev said:
thanks laz,
i understand now the importance of having a good edge before polishing , i have sheet of 2000 sandpaper, european though and i'll use it with the microscope. do i need to have very low pressure to get a perfect edge because i would use a light pressure to keep it steady. do you think the red rouge will be sufficient for the hanging hair test?i also have a yellowstone block but have found it very hard to get any on the denim. that perfect edge is tricky to get and maybe i'm using too much pressure and should take longer to hone? i do see on a european website a small belgian stone very reasonably priced grit 6000 although id prefer to use sandpaper so i could use it on other tools ie gouge.http://www.dick-gmbh.de/

thanks laz its a great advantage to have a facility such as this,
nev

Joe is right, you should get a hone. "The right tool for the right job" applies here. Sandpaper is a good "in a pinch" medium, but a hone in the right grit is invaluable.
I don't know what grit the red rouge is, so I can't say it would be appropriate for the hanging hair test.
And while the hanging hair test is a great parlor trick, it is not necessarily a true indicator of whether or not the razor is truly shave ready.

Laz in Tampa · Oct 24, 2005

nev said:
just to add under higher magnification(300-400 the edge looks like scratches intervening and a slight wobbly edge.its hard to know whether a finer paste or to return to honing ?

I would use a magnifier no more than a 100x one. If you use higher magnifications, you will always see scratches, and the higher you go, the worse the edge will look.

A 100x scope will give you a good view of the edge, and the microscopic waves and dings won't show up. If the edge looks good under 100x, in my opinion, it is probably ready to try shaving with it.

Laz in Tampa · Oct 24, 2005

Rik said:
Laz,
Could this be an indication of an over honed edge?

I would need more information. An over-honed edge will appear fragile and "crumbling" and uneven, because the bevel is now far too fragile to stand up to shaving.

Joe Lerch · Oct 24, 2005

Laz in Tampa said:
I would use a magnifier no more than a 100x one. If you use higher magnifications, you will always see scratches, and the higher you go, the worse the edge will look.

A 100x scope will give you a good view of the edge, and the microscopic waves and dings won't show up. If the edge looks good under 100x, in my opinion, it is probably ready to try shaving with it.

Just to add to what Laz said, the scratches are what give you the edge. If you look at a keen edge at 300-400x you will see that there are micr-serrations or tiny teeth where the scratch lines end at the edge. That's what does your cutting. The scratch lines on the sides of the edge contact you face and produce friction. The finer those lines are, the finer the micro-serrations and the less the friction. These magnifications are great for learning about razors, but as Laz points out, you can't make the edge non-wavy at those magnifications.

When I get a new razor from Ebay, I check it at 100x to assess it. That shows me any invisible chips and unevenness in the edge. As Laz points out, you should try to make the edge look straight at 100x. You can also see the microserrations as a bright portion at the very edge. That portion should be continuous along the edge.

nev · Oct 24, 2005

Thanks guys,
joe my interest in this razor business is sharpening at the moment i'll learn one skill at a time anyway but the reason i dont have many stones is that i started sharpening with sandpaper and was immediately amazed with the results going from rusty chisel to mirror finish in 20 minutes.i have a hobby of making violins and gouges sharpened with sandpaper blitz through spruce and dont take long to sharpen.its great for beginners as you always have a flat base for chisels not gouges.i'm not averse to spending money on good quality equipment as long as i feel i can get value for it therefore i'll think i'll go for the tilly barber hones and some strops from handamerican.and as my main concern is not shaving i think i might stay away from the nortons.

thanks guys,
there are a few there on redtrader , any suggestions on which ones and are handamerican strops good?

i do appreciate all these suggestions,
nev

Joe Lerch · Oct 24, 2005

nev said:
there are a few there on redtrader , any suggestions on which ones and are handamerican strops good?

The sandpaper is OK, for example, if you occasionally need 1K to form an edge on a really dull razor or to fix a large chip.

On the barber hones, you'll want a medium and a fine finishing hone. I recently bought one of the cushion strops, which I like and it's relatively fast. The lithide is a fine finishing hone. It's very smooth about 12K I'd say. However it is a little small and thin for my big hands.

I have one of the Handamerican countertop hones and it's excellent. I understand that the new ones have individual strop inserts which are held in place by magnets. So, you can get one finished leather and a few unfinished for the addition of paste. How many and the ones yuo get will depend on your needs. The popular sizes are 6, 3, 1, .5 and .25 microns, which correspond to 3K, 8K, 14K, 50K and 100K grit.

nev · Nov 28, 2005

hi again,
after getting the hand american .5 paste i noticed a big difference in my edge it became sticky and clings to my arm hair(with grain), swiping it easily clear away also it cuts a hanging hair smoothly when the root is out but when holding root its a little more stubborn irregularly cutting (requires slow movement). as regards the shaving test i find it cuts the hair(few days growth) without any discomfort,comfortably but it doesnt seem to give it a close shave even after two passes(short stubble) unless i go against the grain which is a bit rougher and not really comfortable , neck okay but could be closer .after all this it gives me bad razor burn.i do use a brush and taylors cream for my prep. so what i'm really wondering (as far as you can tell) is it simply my edge is too dull or is it technique?
its certainly improving from where i was anyway so thanks anyway,
nev

Joe Lerch · Nov 28, 2005

nev said:
is it simply my edge is too dull or is it technique?
its certainly improving from where i was anyway so thanks anyway,
nev

It could be a combination of both. Try doing a little more on the .5 and see if it improves.

Your shaving will get closer with practice. For the razor burn try reducing the applied pressure to the blade as much as possible. You can also try reducing the distance of the spine above the skin. Try between 1 and 2 spine widths.

nev · Nov 28, 2005

right thanks joe and actually is the hanging hair test done holding the root end or not
thanks

Joe Lerch · Nov 29, 2005

nev said:
right thanks joe and actually is the hanging hair test done holding the root end or not
thanks

I'm not the one to answer that question. That test, in any form, has never worked for me, even on razors honed by the top honemeisters. I think my hair is just too fine. Yet, I'm consistently producing keen edges now.

The only real test is shaving, but I now have done about 40 razors in a row that were shave ready after passing the thumb test and a microscope analysis at 100x.

You need to find a test that works for you with a high level of consistency.

randydance062449 · Nov 30, 2005

Rik said:
Laz,
Could this be an indication of an over honed edge?

The gold edge could be a overhoned edge or a bevel that does not reach all the way down to the edge. The solution here is to go back to the 1000 grit intil the bevel is all one uniform color and scratch pattern.

randydance062449 · Dec 1, 2005

nev said:
right thanks joe and actually is the hanging hair test done holding the root end or not
thanks

The root end is held out, about 1/2 -1 inch
the curve of the hair is down
the blade is stationary, it does not move
bring the hair down over the edge of the blade
the less resistance you feel, the sharper the edge

This is the test I use to indicate that the razor is ready for a shave test.

nev · Dec 2, 2005

ah right thanks guys well i feel that my razor does pass that test with little resistance and it does shave my stubble comfortably so i'll think i'll try a couple more shaves concentrating on technique ie angle, pressure, stretching skin,speed and see if my closeness improves and if not its most probably the edge.
thanks again

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