Lubricity of cream/soap

[rusirius]

Okay, for those that have followed my other thread, I've been wetshaving for less then a week now. My first shave was a complete nightmare, but my technique (angle and pressure mostly) have improved greatly and this morning I actually got a decent shave, still not even up to par with what I could get from my M3 with an ATG pass, but it's pretty close and I know it'll only get better.

Now, here's the thing I'm dealing with right now, and hopefully you gentlemen can help point me in the right direction...

I'm having a terrible problem getting my lather to be very lubricating. My razor sticks and just doesn't glide the way it should. First let me tell you my current setup and then I'll go over my technique, hopefully somebody can help clue me in on what I might be doing wrong.

My brush is the Vulfix #403 best badger brush. Not the best brush in the world obviously, but seems to be a pretty good one, and I certainly have no problems getting a lather whipped up (or at least I don't think I do) ;)

I usually whip in a bowl (just a ceramic cereal bowl) and have tried using Taylor's Avacado cream and several different Classic brand soaps. (all, even the cream seem to have these same results).

I soak the brush and bowl in hot water for a bit, flick some water off the brush, then if I'm using a cream I give a light swirl in it. If I'm using a soap I will have had it wet with hot water previously, dumped the water out (of the mug with soap), then swirl the brush on it until it just starts to lather. At this point I dump the hot water out of the bowl (usually leaves a little water behind) and then start whipping up the lather in the bowl.

Now here's my problem... No matter what I do, I just can't seem to get a lather that seems like it offers good lubrication. If I get some of the lather between my fingers and rub it's not much different then water alone, perhaps a little slicker at first, but NOTHING in comparison to a cream from a can, etc.

Now here's something else interesting to note. With this morning's shave I was using the cream (Taylor's). Started whipping and after getting a lather (stiff peaks that support themselves, etc), put it on my face and shaved. At this point the finger test again didn't seem NEARLY as lubricating as I thought it should be, but it was almost tolerable.

For the next pass I added more water and whipped again, thinking it would get more lubricating with more water.. I added water a few drops at a time and whipped it in. After each whipping I'd test it with my fingers. Here's the thing... It seemed as though the more water I got in it, the less lubricating it became. (Which almost seems to make sense when I think about it, the cream or soap by itself should be far more lubricating then water).

I lathered up anyway and tried my next pass. It was terrible. Even though I had stiff peaks and a lot more water in the lather, the blade was sticking, skipping, etc..

For my next pass I decided to try getting even more water in the mix. I added some water and started whipping again. The lather got thinned out a good bit (testing at this point showed it to be no slicker then water). I whipped and whipped and finally after probably a good 5 minutes or so it started stiffening back up. When I finally got peaks that would support themselves again I gave it another finger test. Still not very lubricating. My next pass was the same as the one before, sticking and skipping.

My last pass I added more water and tried again, it got to the point where my lather consisted of bubbles the size of the tip of a ball point pen. Still checking each step of the way it continued to not offer much lubrication at all. (I was tempted to go whip out the bottle of astroglide and add a few drops. ) I finally ditched it, and started a brand new batch. Again just what water stayed in the brush and the film left in the bowl. After whipping this up it was comparable to the first batch in that it was slightly lubricating, but not terribly so, or at least not what I would EXPECT it need to be.

Now here's the only other info I can offer that might be contributing but I really have no idea.

1) My water is not "HOT!". I keep our water heater set for something like 120 or 125. It's not "steaming hot" by any means, but still hot. You can certainly splash straight water from the tap on your face and not "burn alive" LOL... Could this have something to do with it? Do I need to get a water boiler to use instead?

2) While the condition of my water is very good (very soft, not hard at all), it is in fact city water, so there is chlorine, etc in it. Though in VERY small amounts. You can drink water straight from my tap and not taste or smell any chlorine at all.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!! Thanks!

[SLider]

what kind of razor and blade are you using? and also what do you do for prep before the shave? you can get Skipping and sticking if you have a dull blade and/or stiff coarse hair no matter how slick your cream/soap is.

[rusirius]

Using the Merkur HD. Right now it has a feather in it with only about 3 shaves on it.

As for prep, I shower, don't dry my face, then keep hot water splash on my face to keep it wet while I'm shaving my head. Then I shave my face.

[gc_30286]

hello and a late welcome to B&B

your lather situation is puzzleing (sp?) im sure somone here will be able to solve it for you though.

as for irritation i would leave the ATG pass out for a while. you should be able to get very good shaves with one with grain and one across grain pass once you get the hang of DE shaving. i have been DE shaving for a couple months now and still get irritation when shaving against the grain

best of luck

matthew

[Tinzien]

I ditched my classic brand soaps fast and I've always had trouble with Taylors in terms of lubricity versus other brands.

Have you tried going to your local drugstore and picking up some glycerin? According to some other posts on B&B, adding a few drops to your lather really helps but YMMV.

[rusirius]

Hrmm haven't tried that, but certainly a thought... Thanks to Scotto I should have a supply of samples coming my way soon too, so that will give me a better comparison of various creams. I've also considered getting a pre-shave oil, that may help to I'm guessing. I'm gonna pick up a water boiler and maybe some glycerin on the way home tonight and see if that seems to make any difference.

[letterk]

I think you're using too much water. It's common place on the boards to stress the importance of using enough water. So much that some people use TOO much water. Make a couple practice lathers varying the amount of cream/soap you use.

[rusirius]

The more I think about it, the more I'm positive your right letterk. As my own tests showed, adding more water DECREASED the amount of lubrication provided, so much so that I ended up making up a new batch. Your right though, everything I've read has preached WATER WATER WATER so I think I've just been overdoing it. I wish there was some surefire way to know if the lather is TOO dry though... Is there? I've heard "if it looks matte, add more water", but honestly even when it got to the point of having way too much water it still looked what I would describe as "matte".. So who knows...

Your right though, I'm gonna go home tonight and just keep messing around generating bowls of lather and testing them till I can find that perfect combo that feels lubricating...

If that doesn't work, I'll revisit the astroglide idea...

[boboakalfb]

I would suggest putting an almond size dollop of cream in the bowl. By swirling the brush in the cream it is harder to control how much you are actually dealing with. After the brush is soaking let the water drip out...give it a little shake and then start swirling. You could always give it a couple of shakes so you should be a bit dry with your lather. You should see by adding a couple of drops at a time you will go from dry...to lubricious (is that even a word)...to overhydrated. Keep at it...it will get better.

[TraderJoe]

The more I think about it, the more I'm positive your right letterk. As my own tests showed, adding more water DECREASED the amount of lubrication provided, so much so that I ended up making up a new batch. Your right though, everything I've read has preached WATER WATER WATER so I think I've just been overdoing it. I wish there was some surefire way to know if the lather is TOO dry though... Is there? I've heard "if it looks matte, add more water", but honestly even when it got to the point of having way too much water it still looked what I would describe as "matte".. So who knows...

Your right though, I'm gonna go home tonight and just keep messing around generating bowls of lather and testing them till I can find that perfect combo that feels lubricating...

If that doesn't work, I'll revisit the astroglide idea...

I agree, it sounds like you aren't using enough cream. But, how to know if too much cream and not enough water? If the lather seems chalky, then you need more water (although with Taylor's I can't imagine one getting a chalky lather). But generally, if the lather looks chalky rather than like meringue (somewhat shiny), begin adding water slowly.

[mikey]

hello rusirius,

a couple of comments (in no particular order):

1. be patient. it takes a while to learn new techniques and get accustomed to a new razor, building lather, etc. my first wet shave was terrible as well, complete with razor burn and some nicks.

2. be prepared to try out a good number of soaps and/or creams to find the ones that you like. it has taken me about two years and about two dozen soaps to find out that a half dozen of them work really well and that one of them is my go-to soap that has never let me down.

3. what works well for one person may not work well for another. this is true for soaps and creams as well as razors, blades, brushes and bowls or mugs.

4. part of the enjoyment of wetshaving is the jouney finding the setup that works for you. a close, comfortable, smooth shave without nicks, cuts or irritation is definitely a plus <grin>.

hope this helps.

thanks,
mike

Hrmm haven't tried that, but certainly a thought... Thanks to Scotto I should have a supply of samples coming my way soon too, so that will give me a better comparison of various creams. I've also considered getting a pre-shave oil, that may help to I'm guessing. I'm gonna pick up a water boiler and maybe some glycerin on the way home tonight and see if that seems to make any difference.

[rusirius]

WOOOO HOOOO!!!!

Problem solved!!!

On the way home from work tonight I stopped at Target and picked up a heavy rice bowl (perfect size for lather) as well as a cordless electric kettle.

I wanted to do a couple "test runs" with lather to see what I could come up with in the bowl first.

My initial problem was either a) too much water, b) water not hot enough, or c) a combination of both.

I started with the Taylor's avacado. Poured the HOT! water in the rice bowl and soaked the brush for a minute. (water was probably a good 180 degrees or so by the time I poured it in the bowl and it heated it).

Dumped the water out, flicked the brush a few times to get excess water out, got a small amount of cream on the brush (same amount I had been using previously), then went to whipping in the bowl...

Man o Man!!! This stuff whipped up in NO TIME... Next thing you know I had THICK THICK lather, it was just jamming the brush up with it... I had NEVER seen lather like this before...

Then the final check... Got some on my fingers and gave it a rub.... Slick as snot!! The stuff was fantastic! No WAY my razor is gonna stick or skip with lather like this tommorow!!!

Just as a test I cleaned everything up and repeated the test with one of the Classic brand soaps I had (coconut and lime) and whipped it up... Once again I was blown away... Same results, perfect thick THICK lather and as lubricating as could be. (Not to mention the scent was released MUCH stronger then had been in the past, guess the hot! water lead to that).

WOO HOO!!! Gonna go to bed early just so I can get to my morning shave!

If anyone else comes across this thread having the same sort of problem, first make sure your not using too much water. Try flicking more water out of your brush before starting your lather. If that doesn't seem to help, get yourself one of these electric kettles and try it again with hotter water, hopefully you'll be as happy with the results as I am with mine!!!