Stoked to 'hopefully' figure out a coticule

Got my first ever coticule today in the mail from TSS. My current set up is King 1k, 6k, Norton 8k, and cnat after which I hit crox on cotton. I have gotten some fairly good results from the above, but I'm growing weary of the cnat and feeling like if I don't use crox the edge just isn't good enough. I want to use the coticule as more of a finisher at first, then maybe try to do a blade coming off the King 1k from bevel set through to finish.



I grabbed a wade and butcher I have that I have only recently gotten a passable edge out of and started hitting the coticule after lapping flat. I did use a bit of slurry and diluted as I went finally ending with plain water. I'm not sure how many laps I did with plain water and light touch, but I went with a bit of glycerin and water to finish with 50 laps. After all this I went ahead and lathered up to shave since I felt like I was getting better action tree topping arm and leg hair than usual coming right off the stones. This is may be the first time I've not gone with crox before shaving ever. I was hoping it would be a better edge than it had before. It felt strange. Like it was fairly sharp, but just not quite there and tugged too much. I resisted the temptation to use the crox as I wanted to see what a coticule edge feels like and be able to gauge my progress as I figure this out. After the uneventful shave I hit the stone with another 75 or so laps on lather and got a bit better tree topping action. I will probably do some more on lather before I try the next shave with this blade. To be fair, I normally shower before I shave and I didn't this time which could be a contributing factor. I do feel like it was at least as good if not better than I normally have coming off the cnat. I'm sure if had just hit the crox it would have been right where I like it, but I'm stuck on wanting to figure this out.

Congrats on your first coti, Chris. If it were me I think I'd leave slurry out of the equation for now and just use it water only. Slurry on a coti can be difficult in the beginning. Did you check the stone for flat? I know Jarrod laps them, but its always good to check, especially starting out. Also, cotis that are freshly lapped will auto slurry for a while until they're broken in so you could try honing under running water and see how that goes. I think before I used Chrox I'd get all I could out of the coti and then add a layer of tape and hone under running water for 30 ish really light laps then check. That will give you an idea of what the stone can do and keep you from getting discouraged.

I personally have never really had good results from the vein that stone is from. I would suggest trying some different coticules and you'll have better results. Jnats are also great finishers and easier to learn though the edges have a different feel to them.

Try this. Go from your best edge on your norton 8k to the coticule with no slurry just using it at the sink with a light stream of water and just give it 5-10 passes before stropping and shaving. When you feel the blade stick to the stone you are done and go no further.

That coticule looks like a La Grise which has been the source of much frustration for the people that own them. That's the vein being quaried now as far as I know. I've had very mixed luck with mine so far. With your current setup adding a black Arkansas stone might be a solution with the least fuss. You can hone on them a good while for finishing and not realy worry about going too far.

Awesome! You’re in for a spiritual (and at times frustrating) journey. I second the suggestion to stay away from slurry the first couple times and just to a bunch of x-strokes on water if you already have a pretty good edge. After that, put your coti under the dripping kitchen sink faucet and just do a bunch of x-strokes on that bed of water, then strop on linen much more than you think you need to. You can actually dull your blade and go backwards in the process if you use too much slurry at the beginning. Coti edges definitely have a different feel than CROX (or other) edges; what you describe sounds to me like the beginning of a good coti edge: not as keen as CROX, but still cutting, and maybe requiring a bit more technique / angle to get the shave where you’re used to.

Dcaddo111 said:

Congrats on your first coti, Chris. If it were me I think I'd leave slurry out of the equation for now and just use it water only. Slurry on a coti can be difficult in the beginning. Did you check the stone for flat? I know Jarrod laps them, but its always good to check, especially starting out. Also, cotis that are freshly lapped will auto slurry for a while until they're broken in so you could try honing under running water and see how that goes. I think before I used Chrox I'd get all I could out of the coti and then add a layer of tape and hone under running water for 30 ish really light laps then check. That will give you an idea of what the stone can do and keep you from getting discouraged.

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Yeah, I noticed that slurry was still forming even when I went to water. I did lap it flat myself just to check. I added a layer of tape to this W&B after having a terrible time getting a decent edge on it. I went back to the 8k and cnat both with a layer of tape to finally get this razor shaving. I started with the coticule with the tape on, I think I'm going to go back without the tape and see what it makes the primary bevel look like. Then maybe I'll go back to tape and finish like you suggested. Last night I tried everything, water, glycerin, lather, running water and the edge just seemed to degrade worse. It has a pebbly feel to it over most of the surface...I don't know if that's normal but it's definitely odd for the feedback.

life2short1971 said:

I personally have never really had good results from the vein that stone is from. I would suggest trying some different coticules and you'll have better results. Jnats are also great finishers and easier to learn though the edges have a different feel to them.

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life2short1971 said:

Try this. Go from your best edge on your norton 8k to the coticule with no slurry just using it at the sink with a light stream of water and just give it 5-10 passes before stropping and shaving. When you feel the blade stick to the stone you are done and go no further.

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I will definitely try this...which was my intention last night but I got carried away.

lightfoot said:

That coticule looks like a La Grise which has been the source of much frustration for the people that own them. That's the vein being quaried now as far as I know. I've had very mixed luck with mine so far. With your current setup adding a black Arkansas stone might be a solution with the least fuss. You can hone on them a good while for finishing and not realy worry about going too far.

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I had also thought about a black Arkansas, but it was tough to find a ton of information on what exactly I should look for in a stone.

Zach said:

Awesome! You’re in for a spiritual (and at times frustrating) journey. I second the suggestion to stay away from slurry the first couple times and just to a bunch of x-strokes on water if you already have a pretty good edge. After that, put your coti under the dripping kitchen sink faucet and just do a bunch of x-strokes on that bed of water, then strop on linen much more than you think you need to. You can actually dull your blade and go backwards in the process if you use too much slurry at the beginning. Coti edges definitely have a different feel than CROX (or other) edges; what you describe sounds to me like the beginning of a good coti edge: not as keen as CROX, but still cutting, and maybe requiring a bit more technique / angle to get the shave where you’re used to.

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It definitely felt strange...like it wasn't cutting well, but it was still cutting.



I'll try some things mentioned and hopefully have the edge in better shape.

While I don't want to push the ark path I just wanted to let you know that I use a 6x3" black that I picked up from Dan's whetstone from their benchstone icon. If you scroll down just look for the word "black". It takes the guess work out and they arrive dead flat.

lightfoot said:

While I don't want to push the ark path I just wanted to let you know that I use a 6x3" black that I picked up from Dan's whetstone from their benchstone icon. If you scroll down just look for the word "black". It takes the guess work out and they arrive dead flat.

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Thanks lightfoot I'll have to check it out.

I've got a coti that looks similar to the OP's. At first, I didn't like its cobblestone-like feel when honing, but I've gotten used to it, used only with water. Lately, I've either followed it with one of AJ's purple slates, again with water, or a linen strop pasted with the Dovo red tube stuff. Coti edge by itself is pretty much always too "smooth" for me; I need a little more bite...

Of your progression as listed, the King 6k > Norton 8000 strikes me as a bit redundant. I have heard that the Norton 8000 is more like 5k-6k JIS. From the stones you have, I would recommend King 1k > King 6k > coticule used with water to see how this goes for starters. Some say that these coticules are analogous to 6k JIS, but I don't think it's being redundant here as the natural stone acts differently than the synth stone.

Without tape I spent some time on slurry to work on the primary bevel because the secondary was starting to increase in size quite a bit. That seemed to clean up nicely.

I then rinsed the slurry off and put on a layer of tape on. I did 30 laps under a dripping faucet and checked the edge. Better.
Did another 30 light laps. Little to no change. Did some more very light strokes and saw a marginal improvement in the toe. Heel and middle weren't improving at all.

This blade is so twisted I shouldn't be using it to test a new stone out but it's the only blade I have right now that needed to be improved.

I was glad to at least see some progress on the toe. The feedback felt much less grainy or textured this time. I think the stone is breaking in a bit.

Dilbone said:

The feedback felt much less grainy or textured this time. I think the stone is breaking in a bit.

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That sounds like what I described as cobblestone. With continued use, yes, the sensation does diminish.

life2short1971 said:

Try this. Go from your best edge on your norton 8k to the coticule with no slurry just using it at the sink with a light stream of water and just give it 5-10 passes before stropping and shaving. When you feel the blade stick to the stone you are done and go no further.

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I really like this Scott![emoji12]
I would like to know what you are stropping with and how many passes?

I thought you might @drmatt357

Alum of Potash said:

I've got a coti that looks similar to the OP's. At first, I didn't like its cobblestone-like feel when honing, but I've gotten used to it, used only with water. Lately, I've either followed it with one of AJ's purple slates, again with water, or a linen strop pasted with the Dovo red tube stuff. Coti edge by itself is pretty much always too "smooth" for me; I need a little more bite...

Of your progression as listed, the King 6k > Norton 8000 strikes me as a bit redundant. I have heard that the Norton 8000 is more like 5k-6k JIS. From the stones you have, I would recommend King 1k > King 6k > coticule used with water to see how this goes for starters. Some say that these coticules are analogous to 6k JIS, but I don't think it's being redundant here as the natural stone acts differently than the synth stone.

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Yeah, I didn't know that the king 6k and norton 8k were comparable JIS. I do seem to notice an increase in keeness from the 8k

Alum of Potash said:

That sounds like what I described as cobblestone. With continued use, yes, the sensation does diminish.

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The more time I spend on it the less pronounced it is for sure.



I did some additional time with that W&B taped spine and running water doing some half strokes then finishing light x strokes. The keeness improved some. I might do some more of that and see if I get additional improvement.

I also took my pearl king that was shaving pretty well but I wanted to see what it would feel like off the coticule so I did 30 x strokes under running water very lightly.
It was a fantastic shave. Smooth comfortable and close. I'm wondering if I just add the coticule at the end of the current progression even after crox if it will smooth it out enough to really make things comfortable.
It's a thought anyway.

You could give it a shot: a handful licks on the stone, either with standing water or used dry, after the crox to sort of temper the edge off the paste. Good luck there. Sounds like something I might be inclined to try. ;-)

Alum of Potash said:

You could give it a shot: a handful licks on the stone, either with standing water or used dry, after the crox to sort of temper the edge off the paste. Good luck there. Sounds like something I might be inclined to try. ;-)

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That is a myth isn't it? I'm talking about the paste being harsh. It actually smooths the edge as far as I can tell.

When people talk about pastes being harsh it's usually because they don't have a good 8k edge and therefore anything they do after that isn't going to help.

When they do a good job at 8 k and leave off the paste it can seem smooth but it would have been even smoother with paste. Am I wrong?

I've found pasted edges much better at catching hairs than cleanly (effortlessly) severing hairs. Meaning they make a dull edge cut much better very fast; but have limited top ends. I don't experiment with various surfaces and abrasives; but this is what it feels like to me based on linen and balsa with chromox and similar range particle abrasive applications. The worst straight shaves I've ever had were almost all paste edges... remind me of electric razors... which I stopped using as a kid because they ripped my beard out by the roots.

seattleshaver said:

That is a myth isn't it? I'm talking about the paste being harsh. It actually smooths the edge as far as I can tell.

When people talk about pastes being harsh it's usually because they don't have a good 8k edge and therefore anything they do after that isn't going to help.

When they do a good job at 8 k and leave off the paste it can seem smooth but it would have been even smoother with paste. Am I wrong?

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8k is a relative term, used pretty loosely on the forums in my opinion. I haven't used crox for a very long time, now mostly the ferric oxide pastes when I use pastes. But from my experience, it is true that a coticule leading to red ferox can yield an excellent edge. The coticule is never enough for me personally, I need a little bit more. Used judiciously, a pasted strop can achieve this, as can the right unicorn finishing stone, $$$ or otherwise. In either case, the risk is going too far and arriving at harshness, which is not a myth once you've experienced it. In the past I've tempered harsh edges with a black hard Arkansas. But following the OP's earlier comment, I was thinking that perhaps the same prior coticule could help to temper a harsh edge off crox afterwards, if and when such an occasion should arrive. Something that hadn't occurred to me before.

I've experimented a little bit (not as much as some I'm sure). I took a good edge and then used crox and instead of the recommended 5/7 laps I did 20-40. It was still a good edge. Crox isn't doing much "cutting"

If I had an edge that wasn't so good the crox didn't help much and if I did it too much it did seem to hurt. It also can hurt when you have "bad" steel. I had a wedge where it was easy to get ugly micro pitting on the edge. It wasn't there before honing. It was just bad steel before honing. It didn't look too bad (using microscope) before pasting and after excessive pasting it did look ugly.

On another issue, ferric oxide. I use this after crox sometimes as well. I don't know that it does anything but I can't imagine that it could hurt. I did read however that it does nothing to steel. It's for much softer metals. I use it anyway as I have it and an extra side of a paddle strop. Just thought I'd throw this out there however for discussion/comments.