Honing a 7/8 W&B wedge

seattleshaver · Dec 8, 2016

I haven't had or honed a wedge before. So far I haven't been able to get this W&B 7/8 wedge sharp enough to shave. I guess there is just more metal to remove on a wedge but so far, out of my 13 straights, this is the only one that can't shave at all.

I've read about all of the different strokes that might be applicable to an older wedge including modified X stroke with leading heel and that's what I'm doing but it is a slow row to hoe.

Is this just generally par for the course with older W&B "chopper" wedges?

kcb5150 · Dec 8, 2016

It takes a long time to set a bevel on a wedge but it goes quickly after you do. Don't pile on multiple layers of tape either, guys do that and then wonder why it shaves miserably even though the bevel is "set"

kcb5150 · Dec 8, 2016

Keep going on your bevel setter and you are bound to get undercut at some point. Then try to shave some arm hair or do a tpt to see what's up. If it is smiling use the rolling x stroke. It takes a lot longer..

seattleshaver · Dec 8, 2016

I don't use tape. I use relatively light pressure and what pressure is there is at the edge. After I get it to shave I figure I won't be honing it often after that. It's made it 125 year without wearing out so it's no tape for me.

Hopefully I'll get there eventually.

kcb5150 · Dec 8, 2016

1 layer is fine typically but the ppl who pile on 4+ need to be sat in the corner staring at the wall. What I tend to do if one has chips is calc the bevel and if it would put me in a so so place of tape was used I go without at first for the first salvo, measure it all again and then go to one layer to finish and it usually gets me in a better place than I would have been. Plus it helps me hit the areas that were neglected as all old wedges seem over honed in one spot and under in another.

kcb5150 · Dec 8, 2016

I have to say it again... It takes a lot longer to hit the apex in a wedge.... A lot lot

seattleshaver · Dec 8, 2016

Good to know that it takes everyone a while to get there!

I'm not sure I get the tape thing other than as a protection of the spine. My blade is wider at the toe and narrows going back to the heel.

How would one use tape (other than as protection) in that scenario?

kcb5150 · Dec 8, 2016

If it has uneven hone wear, just use correct habits and try to gradually ease it into form over time.

Kentos · Dec 8, 2016

Did you sharpie the bevel to see if it is even hitting the stone?

seattleshaver · Dec 8, 2016

Kentos said:
Did you sharpie the bevel to see if it is even hitting the stone?

Yes.

Kentos · Dec 8, 2016

seattleshaver said:
Yes.

All the wedges I honed up have comparatively huge bevels, so a little extra pressure is needed to remove metal. Actually a lot more. You prolly know this but a sharpie test with coarser stones doesn't help much as the swarf removes the ink so I like testing on a 12k or jnat.

mbrando · Dec 10, 2016

yeah, if it was not loud and clear, it takes a lot longer to work a wedge than a hollow grind. Some people will look for it shave arm hair. I try to view the bevel in the glint of an over head light moving around to see if the bevel goes all the way to shaving edge or not. I also thumb pad test the edge too. Once it looks and feels sharp you move on.

kcb5150 · Dec 10, 2016

I want effortless shaving of hair and very equal undercut of water across the entire edge.

Gamma · Dec 10, 2016

seattleshaver said:
I haven't had or honed a wedge before. So far I haven't been able to get this W&B 7/8 wedge sharp enough to shave.

Is this just generally par for the course with older W&B "chopper" wedges?

Often, what you're describing is the result of rotten steel - aka micro pitting - and not the grind. Those old beast blades were misused, stored poorly, and seemingly honed by lunatics when they were in service.
I've had wedges with pitting that went clear though the bevel - could see daylight through the holes.
Check the bevel angle too. It's not all that uncommon to find them with a very stout bevel that will defy getting shaving sharp.

kcb5150 · Dec 10, 2016

Yeah, I am in that boat with a rotten india steel that I am slowly brutalizing into form when I am bored. It had heavy hone wear in one spot and nonexistant on the front end back side and then flip for the same thing but in the opposite directions. And covered in rot. The middle of the edge is still microchipping. Youbcan see the original massive heel bevel on the back vs the current. Blade was not ground great on the back face and the person overreacted I think. Probably out of frustration. It's a lot of fun to tinker with though...

seattleshaver · Dec 10, 2016

Gamma said:
Often, what you're describing is the result of rotten steel - aka micro pitting - and not the grind. Those old beast blades were misused, stored poorly, and seemingly honed by lunatics when they were in service.
I've had wedges with pitting that went clear though the bevel - could see daylight through the holes.
Check the bevel angle too. It's not all that uncommon to find them with a very stout bevel that will defy getting shaving sharp.

I'm sure there is a lot going on here. Although the sides of the blade have pitting (one side more than the other) it doesn't seem to be near the edge now. The bevel seems wide however, as far as how wide the ground area is on each side. It also doesn't extend all the way to the heel and it goes closer to the heel on one side than the other.

The blade is wider near the toe and narrows as it approaches the heel. There is a little "smile" near the toe as well. At this point I just consider this a learning experience and I pull it out every now and then and hone for a while to start to correct the "smile".

There was a little micro pitting on the edge when I got it and I ground that off so to reestablish a proper bevel I know more metal is going to have to be removed from the sides of a bevel than a hollow ground blade.

Luckily I have a couple of other new (to me) blades that I've been able to hone so I'm not too frustrated.

Patience is not my strong suit but in this case it is necessary it seems.

Gamma · Dec 11, 2016

There really probably isn't all that much going on with your blade.

People blame wedges for 'having too much steel to remove' during bevel set.
I have wedges here that will hone in the same amount of time as a full hollow. Once the steel is clean, no matter how wide the bevel is, it'll go over the hone in the same amount of time that a skinny bevel does. Take a W&B wedge out of my box and it'll hone easy peasy 1, 2, 3.

The issue is that those old birds are usually rife with rotten steel; while there are a few reasons for that, they're not important.
What is important though, is that to find the bevel, you have to grind a ton of steel off. That is where the 'more work' concept lives. If you had a full hollow with the same amount of pitting that is typicaly found on old wedges, you wouldn't hone it, you'd throw it out.

Unless you're looking at the steel with at least 400x magnification (I don't mean 400x under a cheap chinese hand-held magnifier either), then you probably won't see how bad the steel really is. You can, however - learn to feel it, and sometimes you can even smell it. It can take for what seems like forever and a day to cut through all of it though. It's rare that the steel is beyond repair, but it happens so pay attention to what's going on. There's no need to turn an 8/8 into a toothpick if it's never going to hone up.

Keep your geometry straight, make sure the edge is on the stone always, make sure the bevel angle isn't too wide, and keep at it on your bevel setting stone. Do it in sessions if you have to. You'l get there - I've done it too many times to count and every time I do it, at some point along the way, I wind up asking the blade 'why aren't you done yet?". lol.

SliceOfLife · Dec 11, 2016

Lol, nothing stinks quite like a rotten Sheffield.

seattleshaver · Dec 11, 2016

Gamma said:
There really probably isn't all that much going on with your blade.

People blame wedges for 'having too much steel to remove' during bevel set.
I have wedges here that will hone in the same amount of time as a full hollow. Once the steel is clean, no matter how wide the bevel is, it'll go over the hone in the same amount of time that a skinny bevel does. Take a W&B wedge out of my box and it'll hone easy peasy 1, 2, 3.

The issue is that those old birds are usually rife with rotten steel; while there are a few reasons for that, they're not important.
What is important though, is that to find the bevel, you have to grind a ton of steel off. That is where the 'more work' concept lives. If you had a full hollow with the same amount of pitting that is typicaly found on old wedges, you wouldn't hone it, you'd throw it out.

Unless you're looking at the steel with at least 400x magnification (I don't mean 400x under a cheap chinese hand-held magnifier either), then you probably won't see how bad the steel really is. You can, however - learn to feel it, and sometimes you can even smell it. It can take for what seems like forever and a day to cut through all of it though. It's rare that the steel is beyond repair, but it happens so pay attention to what's going on. There's no need to turn an 8/8 into a toothpick if it's never going to hone up.

Keep your geometry straight, make sure the edge is on the stone always, make sure the bevel angle isn't too wide, and keep at it on your bevel setting stone. Do it in sessions if you have to. You'l get there - I've done it too many times to count and every time I do it, at some point along the way, I wind up asking the blade 'why aren't you done yet?". lol.

Mine does have a wide bevel compared to my other razors and it's uneven (just judging by how wide the shinny side of the edge is without magnification).

Maybe this is actually a good candidate for tape?

Gamma · Dec 12, 2016

Wide bevel doesn't mean much, measure and calculate the bevel angle. If you need tape, use it. If not, you can choose to use it or not. But get the numbers straight first, that way you know exactly what you are dealing with.

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Honing a 7/8 W&B wedge

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