Blood everywhere. Help.

Hi everyone,

I'm 33, I've been shaving since I'm 15, and my beard is coarse and my skin sensitive (upper lips, neck and jaw line in particular). I've been using Gillette Mach 3 pretty much the whole time, with occasional fancier Gillette or Wilkison (Shick) ones, as well as my grand dad's Phillips rotating electric razor (burned my face) and some fancy Braun electric razor (burned my face too as well as my wallet).

That was up until 3 years ago when I decided to try DE shaving. Started with my father-in-law old razor but it wasn't great quality at all. Then I bought an Edwin Jagger DE89BL, which broke from falling on the floor. Then a Merkur (I forgot which one) which I broke too in the same manner. And now I'm shaving again with a DE89BL because I had a spare.

I've tried all sorts of blades (merkur, astra, gillette, derby and personna).

I've tried all sorts of soaps (Tailor of Old Bond Street, Proraso for sensitive skins, The Body Shop, Palmolive, Nivea, L'Occitane, Baxter Of California, Shaving oils, whatever I can get my hands on to try)

I've tried all sorts of brushes (my first one was from The Body Shop, then I got a proper Super Badger brush which I still use now).

And shaving is absolutely awful, I absolutely hate it.

I can shave with the hair which almost never results in cuts or burns but I may as well not shave because it stays prickly and looks horrible after 2 hours. For this, DE Razors have been superior to everything else.

But as soon as I go side ways or from down to up and against the hair, it's a blood bath. With everything (cartridges or safety razors), it will burn, it will pull and it will bleed.

Lately, I've gone back to trying Shick Quattros and to my surprise, it wasn't as terrible (but still pretty bad). The blades seem to be pulling and not cutting so well but I'm able to go in all directions, get some spots very smooth but still that pulling sensation and not a comfortable shave at all.

I read about IForgotHisName's technique with the hot towel, the massaging, etc, but frankly ain't nobody got time for that.

I shave in the shower because that's where I have hot water (I'm an expat in Indonesia and there's no hot water anywhere other than the shower in my house).

Today, I received my personna blades from Amazon and was eager to try because of all the good things I read about them and how fed up I was with my Derby blades and their inconsistency.

I did my usual process: shower normally with hot water, put hot water on my face, prep the brush, warm the bowl up, make my lather in the bowl with The Body Shop shaving cream, apply the thick lather to the face for a while and start shaving with the hair top to bottom. Rinse off with hot water, warm the bowl up again, make a bit more hot lather in the bowl, lather up the face, go side ways chin to left ear, right ear to chin, same with neck. Pain starts, first blood. I rinse, lather up again, go bottom to top: neck first, then cheeks, chin and upper lips: more blood, more burn. This is already 3 passes and I can still feel hair patches. My hair grows in all sorts of directions around my neck, it's absolutely frustrating. So I go at it again on those patches only and grind my teeth through the pain again.

When I saw the blood in my shower mirror by then, I was so angry and thought to myself: gosh darn gee willikers, I'm taking a picture of it and I'm going to badger and blade forums to ask for advice.

So here it is (warning: you will see blood and a bit of my hairy chest):


I don't know what to do anymore. I don't wanna buy cartridges anymore because they're so expensive. Our forefathers used to shave the good old way and they were fine. Why not me?!

What am I doing wrong? I tried all sorts of angles, it's the same result. I tried the warm towel, same thing. Massaging, same thing. Proraso pre-shave cream + shaving cream for sensitive skin same thing (although better than the rest).

Also note that there is absolutely 0 decent shaving resource in Indonesia. Indonesian men, as lovely as they are, have 3 hair fighting for attention on their chins and don't need anything more than disposables. Hell, even my F-I-L plucks hairs from his chin with tweezers! I made the mistake to go to a barber in Jakarta once (I actually tried several because I still had hope, when I didn't know any better): they ALL use a shavette with some gillette blades (saw some Astra once!) and Gillette basic shaving cream in an aerosol can. Needless to say, it hurt.
So all this to say that all my shaving equipment has to come from overseas, through Amazon or The English Shaving Company or friends or me traveling overseas. As if finding a proper shaving setup wasn't difficult enough, it seems like I'm playing the game on hard mode.

So... help? Pretty please?

Another thing I noticed: the more I prep my skin, the worse it gets. Or maybe there's a tipping point because I can see my skin being red before I even start shaving if I spend too long prepping.

First, welcome to B&B. I feel your pain.

Irritation, cuts or nicks are usually caused by poor blade angle and too much pressure on the razor. The neck is a tricky area to shave because keeping the right blade angle and little pressure is a challenge. The usual advice is to let the weight of the razor do the job - not put pressure on the blade. To put that in action I have found that using the two fingers and my thumb to hold the razor with another finger resting on the tip of the handle. This results in holding the razor very lightly with no pressure on the razor. You want to hold the razor as lightly as you can without it falling from your hand. I have found that using the right grip on your razor goes a long way in keeping pressure off of the blade. The wiki deals with holding a razor and may help you. For information about blade angle, look here in the wiki.

I understand the frustration you are going through with your beard growing in different directions. My beard, particularly on my neck, grows in many different directions and in some places swirls. Accordingly, WTG and ATG are meaningless to me. It would be practically impossible for me to do a WTG shave on my neck since I would be changing the razor direction every two inches. So, what I do is to pick the way a majority of my beard grows and that becomes my WTG or first pass. The opposite becomes my ATG or final pass and the two other directions become my XTG or second or third passes. To get all my whiskers I have to do a four pass shave. Because part of the first pass is XTG and ATG it is essential that I use a very light touch and watch the angle.

Some additional suggestions:

1. Be sure your lather has sufficient water in it. This makes your shave smoother.
2. Be sure your face is sufficiently hydrated whether you use warm or cold water. If your face is wet before you apply lather for each pass, IMHO, your shaves will be better.
3. Take a washcloth and dip it in cold water and then place it on your face after your last pass.
4. Use WH on your face after you do step 3 above. Use an after shave balm that is a good moisturizer.

In my opinion, with DE razors the key is in the lather. Use less water, much less, for the best protection. If you could show a photo of your lather maybe we can comment on that.

ackvil said:

Irritation, cuts or nicks are usually caused by poor blade angle and too much pressure on the razor. . . it is essential that I use a very light touch and watch the angle.

Some additional suggestions:

1. Be sure your lather has sufficient water in it. This makes your shave smoother.

Click to expand...

Jim has given you a heroic answer as he usually does. I just highlighted three things.

Most of us came to DE from carts. Because the head of a cart razor pivots, it takes all responsibility for shaving angle; with DE, you have to do it yourself, and it takes constant vigilance. Always use the shallowest angle that still cuts whiskers.

Carts also reward using more pressure--you get a closer shave. DE razors punish the use of pressure, usually with cuts and irritation. As Jim says, use the least pressure possible to keep the razor against your face.

Finally, we need to make slick lathers. Many newer gents try to duplicate the foam that comes out of a can. Don't: we want lather, not foam. Try to make a dense, gloppy, yogurty lather rather than an airy, fluffy one. That means adding more water, gradually, to your lather than you may be used to--and taking the time to incorporate it--and by swirling the brush rather than whipping it. More air in the lather doesn't make it shave better, it merely makes it look better. Sorry to disagree with MrDentini, but more water makes a slicker lather, and slick is what you want.

Be sure to let us know of your progress. Remember, you're not the only one to have had difficulty at first. But remember also that men have been shaving this way for generations. You can, too.

First off, welcome to B&B!! We're glad you're here. I have been DE shaving for about 7 months now, and I've tried a decent amount of techniques. I can shave 2 or 3 different ways to BBS, but if I lose concentration, I'm toast. I've had neck burn/bleeding like that more than a couple times (even recently...). But I have some suggestions, as I'm sure many others will.

Pre-shave:
Jury's out on whether or not it really matters. Hydration is good, oil/soap: who knows. I liked oil for a while, then soap, now I just do it if I feel like it.

Brush:
Different brushes can be irritating (my skin doesn't love boar unless its well broken in), but shouldn't really lead to the kind of result your getting.

Soap:
This is a big one. Lather up some time and just leave it on your face for a few minutes. Take it off and see if you're getting the burning. You may actually be intolerant to a fragrance in the soap. Also, make sure it's wet enough (should be creamy, not pasty). I have had a couple soaps that just didn't agree with me, ditch them and try something else.

Razor:
I started with an EJ DE89. I like it fine, but I find the angle on that thing hard to keep consistent, personally. It's a nice, mild razor that can be quite forgiving, but for whatever reason, I always want to push too hard with it. Which leads to...

Pressure:
Yeah... Don't think about taking off hair, think about taking of soap. I get aggressive on my neck sometimes, it's not a pleasant morning after that. It's a difficult thing to do without a mirror (I've shower shaved a few times) but it can be done.

Blade:
Not the key to a great shave, but it can help. I don't love personna, don't like Derby, and I'm not a feather fan. But I really like the Russian blades (Voskhod, Rapira Platinum Lux, Astra SP). I get less irritation from them, and a very close shave.

After Shave:
Witch hazel is good stuff, I don't use it often, but it can help after some burn. I like AS splashes (the alcohol can burn for a minute) because they tend to cool off my face and help with irritation a lot. I think you're problems though stem from something earlier in the process (obviously, right?).

Process:
I have a few things to try that may help.
1. get some hot water from the shower in a bowl, and shave in front of the mirror. This will give you a bit more feedback.
2. Try COLD WATER!! I loved hot water when I started (winter in Colorado). But I get much better shaves with cold water. My face would turn red after a warm towel and never seemed to calm down. The cold water method worked way better for me.


Best of luck!! Let us know how it goes!

Some thoughts.

Possibly you have sensitive skin and the fragrance oils, or something else in your soap (or any other part of your pre-shave routine) is irritating your skin before you even start.

Light touch, no pressure. This is relatively easy to do as you do a down stroke, just allowing the weight of the razor to do the work, but as soon as you go sideways or up, you almost have to put some pressure to keep it on your face. It's easy to put too much pressure.

On the same token, when you go sideways or up, its hard to maintain the same angle as your down stroke. These parts of your technique will be mastered in time.

Good Luck.

Follow the advice above - assuming decent blade and mechanically sound razor, cuts are on you, not due to the tool.
Pay close attention to lather, angle and pressure and you'll get it soon.

Good luck!

1. Don't use ANY pressure-- I think you must be pressing some to get that level of irritation
2. Make sure you really know which way your hair grows-- grow it out a few days to see
3. Make two full WTG passes before attempting any kind of XTG. You should be pretty smooth at this point. Hair needs to be really short before attempting XTG or ATG. That's what's causing the pulling-- the hair has not been reduced enough yet.
4. Stop doing ATG at least until you have the rest figured out
5. Don't shave in the shower-- at least until you have the swing of things--- you need to be able to see what you're doing-- where the lather is, blade angle, etc..
6. Don't go over any areas without lather-- it's common sense, but I think we all have the tendency to do this to some degree.. this causes irritation.

Are you shaving with your growth grain, or following compass points? Mapping your growth makes A HUGE difference.

tromboneliness said:

Jim has given you a heroic answer as he usually does. I just highlighted three things.

Most of us came to DE from carts. Because the head of a cart razor pivots, it takes all responsibility for shaving angle; with DE, you have to do it yourself, and it takes constant vigilance. Always use the shallowest angle that still cuts whiskers.

Carts also reward using more pressure--you get a closer shave. DE razors punish the use of pressure, usually with cuts and irritation. As Jim says, use the least pressure possible to keep the razor against your face.

Finally, we need to make slick lathers. Many newer gents try to duplicate the foam that comes out of a can. Don't: we want lather, not foam. Try to make a dense, gloppy, yogurty lather rather than an airy, fluffy one. That means adding more water, gradually, to your lather than you may be used to--and taking the time to incorporate it--and by swirling the brush rather than whipping it. More air in the lather doesn't make it shave better, it merely makes it look better. Sorry to disagree with MrDentini, but more water makes a slicker lather, and slick is what you want.

Be sure to let us know of your progress. Remember, you're not the only one to have had difficulty at first. But remember also that men have been shaving this way for generations. You can, too.

Click to expand...

I quoted this so you would read it all again, listen to this man he knows of what he speaks. Good luck

Oh and I forgot to add a couple things:

Have you tried cold water shaving? Lots of people, myself included, get better shaves from cold water.

Have you tried Jojoba oil as a pre-shave in the shower? It really improves my face when I've abused it.

Hi & welcome.
This worked for me when I was developing my technique....
Definitely only go WTG for 2 or 3 passes
Shave in front of the mirror, chill out, relax, take your time with short, slow, precise strokes
Try holding your razor by the tip of the handle between your thumb and your 1st and 2nd fingers, you can grip as hard as you like, but it's almost impossible to accidentally press too hard

This always soothed my face - even after allergic reactions to Derby blades.....
Try soaking a facecloth in iced water, wringing it out until just damp, then cover the shaved areas of your face with it after shaving - instant relief
Consider trying out an alum block too - it stings, but it covers a multitude of sins and another ice cold facecloth 5-10 minutes later will feel great
Aftershave will sting, but your face should feel like a million dollars within minutes
I finish every shave with cold facecloths, alum and aftershave to this day

When you develop your technique, something will click, and shaving will be part of your memory muscle

Good morning everyone,

I'm so glad to wake up to all these replies. Thank you so much for all the tips!

It's a lot to take in but I will try to address all of it (I won't quote all the posts otherwise this reply will be a pain to read):

In reply to ackvil's post:

I've read the wiki links that you gave me and will try this morning. Maybe I need to go back to basics. It could very well be that my technique was wrong from the beginning but I assumed it was something else and kept shaving several years that way. Mind you, I don't bleed that way every morning simply because I don't shave this way every day due to the poor results. I have to choose between a not close shave at all with no blood or a painful close shave, so I had to compromise a bit.

So I'll be extra careful with my grip, pressure and angle.

To address your 4 points:

1. Be sure your lather has sufficient water in it. This makes your shave smoother.
My lather tends to get wetter as I do more passes. Because I rinse my face with hot water after each pass, my face is all wet when I apply the lather and this water mixes with it. So lather 3 is wetter than lather 2 is wetter than lather 1.

2. Be sure your face is sufficiently hydrated whether you use warm or cold water. If your face is wet before you apply lather for each pass, IMHO, your shaves will be better.
Definitely wet before lathering as per above.


3. Take a washcloth and dip it in cold water and then place it on your face after your last pass.
I don't do that but I do rinse my face off with cold water in the shower (although, cold water is not very cold on the equator.)

4. Use WH on your face after you do step 3 above. Use an after shave balm that is a good moisturizer.
I forgot to mention that I use The Body Shop's after shave balm Maca Root Razor Relief. While it stings a little bit due to the alcohol, it does help getting over the burn fairly quickly.
I assume WH stands for Witch Hazel. I'll try to get my hands on it.

In reply to MrDentini's post:

I'm a bit confused: some say "make sure to use more water" others say "use less" although the consensus seems to be on more water. Eitherway, thanks for your advice, I will try to post a photo of my lather later.

In reply to tromboneliness' post:

Thank you for the tips. I will post about my progress.

In reply to dexutter's post:

About the soap: I hadn't thought about this but this is a great idea. It could be that my face is very picky about the soap. I'll try that.

About the pressure: I have a mirror in my shower. It's a small round mirror with suction cup that I can place exactly where convenient. So I've been shaving with it forever and I am not shaving blindly.

Blades: if all else fails, I might try the Russian blades.

After Shave: Yes, indeed, it's earlier in the process. I can always sooth down the burn after the shave with cold water from the shower, after-shave balm and ice cold water from my water dispenser if it's really bad.

Cold water: The few times I tried with cold water wasn't pleasant at all. My hair and skin feel like they become rock hard. But it could be due to technique or something else so if I can improve my shaving with technique first, I will try the cold water to see what it does.

In reply to TheVez2's post:

Come to think of it, maybe I use too hot water sometimes? If it's too hot my skin turns red straight away. So following your post and dexutter's, maybe I should watch out with the temp.

In reply to Haggises's post:

I have to agree. I've tried so many different combinations of tools and soap and pre-shave stuff that it's impossible something does not work. So the common denominator is me.

In reply to mars' post:

1. I try to not put to much pressure but if it's too light my razor just jumps around or worse, seems stuck in my facial hair on the thickest part around the bottom of the chin (only when going ATG). Maybe it's due to angle?

2. I know which way it grows and it's all over the place.

3. I'll try that

4. I'm actually able to shave WTG very comfortably with no or almost no irritation. XTG is not as comfortable but it's really ATG that hurts.

5. No problem with shaving in the shower as I have a small mirror in it

6. I'll be more careful with that.

In reply to Go West Young Man's post:

I have a similar problem to ackvil's: my hair on my neck grows in all directions, especially when I get to the part below my chin. So I try to follow the hair growth but inevitably I ended up going ATG when I'm following WTG on another part.

In reply to Clausewitz' post:

Indeed, this seems like good advice. I will try several of his tips.

Last time I tried cold water wasn't so great but it might be down to technique. I will revisit after paying more attention to lather, grip, pressure and angle.

Never tried jojoba oil. Do you apply before the shave and leave it on as you lather up?

In reply to adamchur's post:

I will try 2 passes WTG before going ATG and see how it goes.

Thanks for the tips on soothing the skin after shave.

Welcome aboard, Simon!

Great advice from all the gents above, not much to add but...

I'm also a shower shaver. I had much the same problem after a recent move. Here's what solved it for me:

1. Prep - I began using my Wife's hair conditioner (whatever brand is in there) on my face and scalp (head shaver). Apply, leave on for 1-2 minutes, rinse off before lathering.

2. Lather - I've found that shaving in the shower is the definition of "wet" shaving. So, I make my lathers MUCH thicker than I did for sink shaving. The water that is already on my face and head provide more than enough hydration, and the thicker lather isn't as prone to rinsing off before I shave there.

Hope that helps!

So, just off the shower. Didn't go so well.

Here's the report with pictures (click to enlarge):

Here's the amount of cream on my brush, I basically swirl it around tub once or twice:



Here's my lather:







So I tried to grip my razor lightly, on the balance point at a not aggressive angle, just enough to catch the hair. Or at least that's what I think I did.

First pass: WTG. Feeling the skin after the pass, it feels like I haven't even shaved.

2nd pass: WTG, a bit better but still a lot of hair, especially on the neck. Chin hair are especially difficult. With just the weight of the razor, it doesn't move. The razor is stuck. At this point I have to choices: put pressure and pull or keep light pressure and pull. If the later, the handle moves but the head stays until it finally kind rakes across at an aggressive angle. WTG doesn't hurt so bad though.

3rd pass: As I lather up, blood patches appear. Then I shaved mostly WTG but slightly XTG as well because some areas aren't catching hair at all at this point. Chin just as horrible.

4th pass: I rinse my face, it stings. Then I go ATG. Only place it doesn't feel horribly uncomfortable is the cheeks. Neck is burning. Mustache area is awful especially with my nose in the way, the angle feels very aggressive and I feel like the blade is lodged just at the base of the hair and pulling rather than cutting. Chin area is just like the 2nd pass and 3rd pass. I tried not to put pressure and as a result the razor gets stuck on the hair, angle messed up, blade is raking and jumping across. Absolutely terrible.

5th pass: same as 4th.

6th pass: same as 4th and 3rd.

At this point I decide to stop before I peel off all my skin. There isn't as much blood as yesterday but it burns like hell, and my shave is not nearly as close.

See results for yourself (warning: blood. Click to enlarge):


This is so frustrating. Frankly, I'd grow a beard just so that I don't have to shave but my wife won't let me.

Welcome aboard! Some terrific suggestions above! IMO, the main issue is to recognize that DE is a skill that will take a bit of time to acquire! With a bit of effort you will get there and the effort will be rewarded!

Yes but I've been going at it for 3 years!

SimonTheShaverer said:

Yes but I've been going at it for 3 years!

Click to expand...

Your lather appears to be good and I would echo the call to be careful of "hot" water.

In your shoes, I would simply cut out passes 4,5 and 6. Unless your technique is very good, it is impossible to drag the razor over your face that many times without causing problems. Concentrate on WTG, WTG and then XTG for a while. That should allow your skin some time to heal and also give you a chance to develop your technique without beating up on your face. Whilst you may find some stray whiskers on your face after you have shaved... no-one else (apart from maybe your wife) will notice at all. First rule of shaving for me is "comfort".

Are you stretching your skin at all during the shave? By tilting your head or pulling up or down on your skin, it is possible to make the area being shaved somewhat flatter and that is a big help (one of the reasons that the cheeks are so easy to shave).

All of these are the voices of experience, so take them all into great consideration. But there seems to be a product no one has addressed yet that is actually the best for me, gives me the smoothest shaves and no irritation when I would have probably gotten some from anything else. Shave butter. Not sure if they have Walmarts in Indonesia, but here in the states, that's where I picked mine up. It is preformulated and and there is no prep work involved. Its literally squeeze out and put on face (though your face should be wet, just follow the fool proof directions on the tube). You don't have the guess work of the consistency of lather, because it's not designed to lather, its a butter. Also, when using this, do not use a shave brush, just use your hands. It gunks up razors pretty quickly, so rinse more frequently, but it provides, IMO, an unmatched level of slick. And maybe try without pre-shave oil. For some it works great, but for others (myself included) it almost seems to help the hairs lay down and avoid getting cut, which may account for some of your patches that are left after passes. Van Der Hagen is the brand name that I grabbed, it comes in an orange squeeze tube with black top. I hope this is some help. Everyone deserves to enjoy their shave.