A few weeks ago I purchased a bout coticule from Jerrod at Superior Shave, I let him know what I was looking for (a finisher) and he directed me to a stone that he assured would meet my needs. The only problem is that after researching countless posts, articles, videos, how to's and going at it for a combined 10 to 15 hours with a Gold Dollar I simply cannot, for the life of me, create a nice keen edge and I've been sharpening knives and tools my entire life (I can turn a butter knife lethal in around 30 mins. using only a coffee mug). I set the bevel with my 1k, then a little progression on my 6k, and finishing with the coticule (heavy slurry at first, slowly progressing all the way down to only water, then a few passes with little to no pressure directly under the flowing faucet). It hasn't been a complete failure, I mean the Gold Dollar is sharp enough to clip a hair at 1/8" or less, but I haven't the courage to attempt a shave with it - razor burn hurts and momma didn't raise a dummy. I have a 100X glass ordered so I can attempt to get a closer look at what exactly I am doing, however I cannot help but feel that something is missing in the equations... So in short either I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to honing straights, I need a harder stone like a JNAT, or Gold Dollar steel is rubbish and this is as good as it gets when polishing a turd. Anyone else encounter this in the beginning? Any ideas what I may be doing wrong, or what I can try next? Thank you.
Hey bro, youre doing it wrong.
- Thread starter TreadwayJohnA
- Start date
Try using oil after using slurry progression then water only... also try small circles instead of long strokes... every coticule should give a shave ready edge just some are easier than others
Ha ha! I am in a worse position than you are! I cannot sharpen a knife - except with one of those patent tungsten carbide V things.
I have been struggling with straight razors too. I have recently acquired a coticule, but have had little or no success with it. However yesterday I tried using my 15k Welsh slate with camelia oil; it looks promising, but this morning's shave will tell. I always have at least four razors stropped just in case - I don't like razor burn and lumpy skin either - and so the day's selection always includes an "old faithful"!
C.
I have been struggling with straight razors too. I have recently acquired a coticule, but have had little or no success with it. However yesterday I tried using my 15k Welsh slate with camelia oil; it looks promising, but this morning's shave will tell. I always have at least four razors stropped just in case - I don't like razor burn and lumpy skin either - and so the day's selection always includes an "old faithful"!
C.
- Thread starter
- #4
Thanks for the advice, I'll give it a go. I've never put oil on a water stone, what oil would you recommend?
I always used mineral oil... just make sure you wash your stone after... it shouldn't soak in but it may...
Instead of oil some people have tried running water... a little soap doesn't hurt either
Instead of oil some people have tried running water... a little soap doesn't hurt either
I use the small circles with some pressure on the heel then middle then toe the x strokes then dilute and repeat until you're at water
If he said it is finisher level I have no doubt it is.... Coticules are not stones you "get" straight away. You have to learn how to extract the performance from it. It could be anything. Some like pressure, others not, some have quite a bit of slurry dulling, others not nearly as much, some you can do like three or four large dilutions and get a great result, others you have to slowly dilute as you go... Some have feedback that is very progressive, others tell you nothing. It's why almost everyone in this thread looks like a maniac with enough hones to build a doghouse for a medium sized dog or more... They're like useful puzzles.. Work at it more. Also, measure the spine relative to the blade height. Some gold dollars have horrible geometry and that may be keeping your edge back as well. The steel is actually ok.
I have ordered a Gold Dollar to help in the learning - before I do too much damage to my old razors. It is reassuring to read that the GD steel is OK. This way at least I shall know where the fault lies!
C.
C.
- Thread starter
- #9
Will do, practice makes perfect. I'll get back at it this morning after I return home, I've done a bit more research on method and feel that I have some refining to do.
I tried coticules when I first started and had no luck and got frustrated and gave up, I found out as I was using the two I had that the one's I had were not recommended for beginners per Gary H.
I ended up selling both and went the JNAT route and have never looked back, I can set a bevel with a 4K then just a few laps on a 8K then finish on a DN ot tomo slurry and get a very acceptable edge in about 15 mins, from my limited research a coticule is tough to learn on as if you dilute the slurry to quickly and you can leave the edge behind but that is just what I have been told, there are guys here like Jarrod at TSS that can do magic with a stone but I was not so lucky so I moved on, I have considered trying my hand at it again but am almost afreaid to buy a stone and have the same luck.
I ended up selling both and went the JNAT route and have never looked back, I can set a bevel with a 4K then just a few laps on a 8K then finish on a DN ot tomo slurry and get a very acceptable edge in about 15 mins, from my limited research a coticule is tough to learn on as if you dilute the slurry to quickly and you can leave the edge behind but that is just what I have been told, there are guys here like Jarrod at TSS that can do magic with a stone but I was not so lucky so I moved on, I have considered trying my hand at it again but am almost afreaid to buy a stone and have the same luck.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
I was sharpening high end Japanese kitchen knives before I returned to straights 6-7 years ago and have to chuckle a little at my fellow knife honers beginning to hone straights. Knife honing is not a help honing razors. They appear to be similar because you're rubbing steel on stone, but that's where the similarities end.
It's hard to grok in the the beginning, but the pressure needed is about 1/100 of what you'd use with a knife, and you have to apply the pressure very evenly over the straight razor's edge, almost none of which are actually straight. I used to wonder why straight razor honers had so many coarse hones, I rarely used anything much coarser than a 1k stone on my Japanese knives and usually I just touched them up on a 5k or a jnat. The reason is that if you have to hone out a tiny chip or flatten out some badly rounded bevels (probably from years of pasted strops) you need a coarse stone because you can't push very hard on most straights, the edge deflects and you don't really hit the apex of the edge, and you just round the bevels again. So you need coarser hones so that you don't spend forever on a 1k stone (though you can do it).
If you're having trouble learning to hone, getting a mentor is probably the best way, even if you never meet. An experienced person can look at your edges and tell you a lot about your honing. And if you're having some problems, a coticule and a factory Gold Dollar are likely a recipe for misery. Unless you luck out, the Gold Dollar will need to have some serious edge correction on a coarse hone, diamond plate, or coarse sandpaper before it has a honable geometry. You can actually push pretty hard on a Gold Dollar, they're beefy hunks of steel, but that isn't true of all razors and you won't finish a razor well with anything like knife pressure.
Relax, lighten up, and forget everything you ever knew about knives beyond rubbing steel on stone!
Cheers, Steve
It's hard to grok in the the beginning, but the pressure needed is about 1/100 of what you'd use with a knife, and you have to apply the pressure very evenly over the straight razor's edge, almost none of which are actually straight. I used to wonder why straight razor honers had so many coarse hones, I rarely used anything much coarser than a 1k stone on my Japanese knives and usually I just touched them up on a 5k or a jnat. The reason is that if you have to hone out a tiny chip or flatten out some badly rounded bevels (probably from years of pasted strops) you need a coarse stone because you can't push very hard on most straights, the edge deflects and you don't really hit the apex of the edge, and you just round the bevels again. So you need coarser hones so that you don't spend forever on a 1k stone (though you can do it).
If you're having trouble learning to hone, getting a mentor is probably the best way, even if you never meet. An experienced person can look at your edges and tell you a lot about your honing. And if you're having some problems, a coticule and a factory Gold Dollar are likely a recipe for misery. Unless you luck out, the Gold Dollar will need to have some serious edge correction on a coarse hone, diamond plate, or coarse sandpaper before it has a honable geometry. You can actually push pretty hard on a Gold Dollar, they're beefy hunks of steel, but that isn't true of all razors and you won't finish a razor well with anything like knife pressure.
Relax, lighten up, and forget everything you ever knew about knives beyond rubbing steel on stone!
Cheers, Steve
Hello John,
there are coticules you can shave of straight, I´am shure it´s possible.
I didn´t find one for me so far. There was this PIKE brand and DEEP ROCK and so on, they should be finer ones.
They are hard to find now.
My story is this:
I had or have a folded and etched steel kitchen knife and my stupid room mate back than scratched it.
Was pissed and thinking of polishing it out. One day I saw a piece of coticule in a shop for artists, bought it cause it looked and felt so smooth. The hole idea was a total fail. The Knife came out so messed up, the stone was far to sratchy to polish and the etched pattern was destroyed of course. The stone is from the La Dressant layer, a fast one.
When I bought my first razor (NOS Heljestrand MK31 for about 30$) in an antique store, I used this stone to bevel set and to finish before going to the cromium strop. It was just a one stone and strop honing back than, but it worked. The strop was the key to success in this case.
I fixed the kitchen knife with uchigumori hato finger stones that were given to me than. It took hours, so scratchy is this coticule.
I´am shure if you can sharpen other things, razors are realy no problem every one can do it, you will see.
Greetings
Ruben
there are coticules you can shave of straight, I´am shure it´s possible.
I didn´t find one for me so far. There was this PIKE brand and DEEP ROCK and so on, they should be finer ones.
They are hard to find now.
My story is this:
I had or have a folded and etched steel kitchen knife and my stupid room mate back than scratched it.
Was pissed and thinking of polishing it out. One day I saw a piece of coticule in a shop for artists, bought it cause it looked and felt so smooth. The hole idea was a total fail. The Knife came out so messed up, the stone was far to sratchy to polish and the etched pattern was destroyed of course. The stone is from the La Dressant layer, a fast one.
When I bought my first razor (NOS Heljestrand MK31 for about 30$) in an antique store, I used this stone to bevel set and to finish before going to the cromium strop. It was just a one stone and strop honing back than, but it worked. The strop was the key to success in this case.
I fixed the kitchen knife with uchigumori hato finger stones that were given to me than. It took hours, so scratchy is this coticule.
I´am shure if you can sharpen other things, razors are realy no problem every one can do it, you will see.
Greetings
Ruben
Over the last few years I don't know how many times I have read about people who hone knives and carpentry tools well having trouble honing a straight razor. I think Steve is on point that they are related skills but also very different in many ways. It is best to approach SR honing with an I know zilch about it attitude for that reason. You do need amazingly little pressure on a SR blade, especially the really hollow grinds, to get the job done.
I agree also that a Gold Dollar might not be a good place to start unless you really like being frustrated by generally bad geometry. Once you have accumulated enough SR honing skills they might make a good project for turning a sows ear into a silk purse which can be very satisfying.
Bob
Depending on the Gold Dollar model you have, you may not have actually gotten to the bevel yet. 66's in particular require some gymnastics to hone as delivered -- it can be done, but most people modify them. 100's, 200's, 208's, etc have the offending parts ground differently and are much easier to hone. The shoulder and stabilizer on the 66 is way too fat as delivered.
Check for space under the edge with the razor on the stone as you are honing -- you can see bright light through a very small crack, might need to hold the razor on the stone at eye level and look. 66's require at least a 45 degree angle from heel to toe, heel leading, on a stone to get the edge on the stone. another easy way to check is put about 1/3 of the razor on the stone with the edge flat, then slide the rest of the razor onto the stone. If you feel it lift up as the heel gets close, you can hone forever and only wear the toe out if you don't figure out how to hone it without the heel lifting.
Always keep the spine on the stone and use VERY light pressure. You should get a cooking knife sharp edge the whole length of the blade in a couple minutes on a 1 K stone with a factory GD -- they are very hard, but thin at the edge.
It will take longer than you are used to with knives -- GD's are usually around 63 RC, very much harder than most knives.
Peter
Check for space under the edge with the razor on the stone as you are honing -- you can see bright light through a very small crack, might need to hold the razor on the stone at eye level and look. 66's require at least a 45 degree angle from heel to toe, heel leading, on a stone to get the edge on the stone. another easy way to check is put about 1/3 of the razor on the stone with the edge flat, then slide the rest of the razor onto the stone. If you feel it lift up as the heel gets close, you can hone forever and only wear the toe out if you don't figure out how to hone it without the heel lifting.
Always keep the spine on the stone and use VERY light pressure. You should get a cooking knife sharp edge the whole length of the blade in a couple minutes on a 1 K stone with a factory GD -- they are very hard, but thin at the edge.
It will take longer than you are used to with knives -- GD's are usually around 63 RC, very much harder than most knives.
Peter
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
This has worked well for me though I go through 8k because I can. Still not a good jnat edge though lol.
Cheers, Steve
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Here are some things I learned over time that will help new razor honers. Your goal is to perfectly set the bevel then uniformly develop every millimeter of the edge as you go up the grit scale.
Get magnification. 5-10x is good.
Get a Sharpie and ink both the bevel and spinewear on every new or new to you razor, then make 1-2 very light passes across the hone. This will reveal a lot of things, like if the razor has been previously honed with tape. Or has a frown, warp, bevels rounded from pasted strops (common on European acquistions).
Learn a bevel set test and practice enough to know how to use it. my first bevel set test is visual inspection under a bare bulb. You should not be able to see the apex of the edge, and you can also see if the hone scratches go all the way to the apex of the bevels. Play around with the angles to see how best to get the light to bounce off the apex. I use the cherry tomato test as a second test, the edge should slice into the skin of the tomato effortlessly. If it requires any effort at all, the bevel is probably not set. You might see some 'sparkle' on the apex that may be pieces of false edge, you'll learn over time to distinguish between these sparklies and the appearance of the bevels not meeting. Sparklies/false edges can be honed off or greatly reduced by very light back and forth x-strokes which won't do much for an unset bevel. Also a tissue paper or a Q-tip will usually catch on a false/wire edge but not an unset bevel. However, bevel set tests don't work well if the edge was previously honed with tape and you don't know it because you didn't ink the edge. The bevel will test as set, but unfortunately it isn't the bevel you're honing on without tape.
Once your apex of the bevels cannot be seen under a bare bulb anywhere along the edge with 5x magnification and the edge passes your secondary test, go to the next grit up (for me this is usually a 5k synth) and give it 40 strokes or so. It's OK to count, you're trying to learn how much time it takes to remove scratches from the previous hone. Now look at the bevels under 5x magnification, especially the toe and heel areas. The scratch pattern should be the same all along the bevels. It probably won't be, you'll most likely see coarser scratches from the previous hone at the toe and heel because 1) the razor smiles a little, and/or 2) your stroke is not even though you think it is. There's no point in going further until the scratch pattern is uniform everywhere. On most razors you will have to learn to bias the pressure from toe to heel as you make your stroke, as in a rolling x-stroke, but you can certainly give the toe and heel a little extra by themselves with circles/ellipses or a finger applying a little pressure on the side of the blade above the offending area. At about 1/100 light knife pressure. If the scratch pattern is not uniform, more pressure won't help, you need better pressure!
Sometimes at the midgrit/5k level you will reveal or observe under magnification a tiny bit of unset bevel or other issue. It's OK to go back to a coarser stone, and you should. If you're whipping a Gold Dollar into shape the first time, you'll probably do the back and forth a few times.
At the 5k stage, I do a hanging hair test after a 'half strop', 10 linen, 20 leather. The reason is unlike a cherry tomato, a hair is very small and I can effectively test the last millimeter of the edge at the toe and heel. A 5k synth will do a great HHT. If that last millimeter isn't as good as the center, I'm not hitting the apex the way I should at the toe and/or heel. If the HHT is worse in the middle, there's likely a little frown that hasn't been removed. Note that I'm not using the HHT to test shave worthiness at this stage, but to test uniformity of the bevel and consequently, the uniformity of my honing pressure.
Repeat the above steps through every grit to finish, testing the last mm of the toe and heel with HHT to make sure the bevel is progressing uniformly all along the edge through every grit.
Hope this helps you get down the path a little more quickly.
Cheers, Steve
Get magnification. 5-10x is good.
Get a Sharpie and ink both the bevel and spinewear on every new or new to you razor, then make 1-2 very light passes across the hone. This will reveal a lot of things, like if the razor has been previously honed with tape. Or has a frown, warp, bevels rounded from pasted strops (common on European acquistions).
Learn a bevel set test and practice enough to know how to use it. my first bevel set test is visual inspection under a bare bulb. You should not be able to see the apex of the edge, and you can also see if the hone scratches go all the way to the apex of the bevels. Play around with the angles to see how best to get the light to bounce off the apex. I use the cherry tomato test as a second test, the edge should slice into the skin of the tomato effortlessly. If it requires any effort at all, the bevel is probably not set. You might see some 'sparkle' on the apex that may be pieces of false edge, you'll learn over time to distinguish between these sparklies and the appearance of the bevels not meeting. Sparklies/false edges can be honed off or greatly reduced by very light back and forth x-strokes which won't do much for an unset bevel. Also a tissue paper or a Q-tip will usually catch on a false/wire edge but not an unset bevel. However, bevel set tests don't work well if the edge was previously honed with tape and you don't know it because you didn't ink the edge. The bevel will test as set, but unfortunately it isn't the bevel you're honing on without tape.
Once your apex of the bevels cannot be seen under a bare bulb anywhere along the edge with 5x magnification and the edge passes your secondary test, go to the next grit up (for me this is usually a 5k synth) and give it 40 strokes or so. It's OK to count, you're trying to learn how much time it takes to remove scratches from the previous hone. Now look at the bevels under 5x magnification, especially the toe and heel areas. The scratch pattern should be the same all along the bevels. It probably won't be, you'll most likely see coarser scratches from the previous hone at the toe and heel because 1) the razor smiles a little, and/or 2) your stroke is not even though you think it is. There's no point in going further until the scratch pattern is uniform everywhere. On most razors you will have to learn to bias the pressure from toe to heel as you make your stroke, as in a rolling x-stroke, but you can certainly give the toe and heel a little extra by themselves with circles/ellipses or a finger applying a little pressure on the side of the blade above the offending area. At about 1/100 light knife pressure. If the scratch pattern is not uniform, more pressure won't help, you need better pressure!
Sometimes at the midgrit/5k level you will reveal or observe under magnification a tiny bit of unset bevel or other issue. It's OK to go back to a coarser stone, and you should. If you're whipping a Gold Dollar into shape the first time, you'll probably do the back and forth a few times.
At the 5k stage, I do a hanging hair test after a 'half strop', 10 linen, 20 leather. The reason is unlike a cherry tomato, a hair is very small and I can effectively test the last millimeter of the edge at the toe and heel. A 5k synth will do a great HHT. If that last millimeter isn't as good as the center, I'm not hitting the apex the way I should at the toe and/or heel. If the HHT is worse in the middle, there's likely a little frown that hasn't been removed. Note that I'm not using the HHT to test shave worthiness at this stage, but to test uniformity of the bevel and consequently, the uniformity of my honing pressure.
Repeat the above steps through every grit to finish, testing the last mm of the toe and heel with HHT to make sure the bevel is progressing uniformly all along the edge through every grit.
Hope this helps you get down the path a little more quickly.
Cheers, Steve
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- Thread starter
- #20
As I'm still quite new to straights (only about 25-ish shaves under my belt) I am still using my poor mans strop from Larry @whipped dog. I have no doubt I'm going to stick with it, as I have produced some of the greatest shaves of my life with a straight thus far - it's simply that I've shelled out a lot of $ in the past few weeks on gear and software and I don't want to sleep on the couch over a dual strop! I've been looking into mountain man mike and a few othe companies and perhaps in a week or so (after the wife forgets about my purchases) I'll pick one up. Btw what strop do you prefer?
