Hey bro, youre doing it wrong.
- Thread starter TreadwayJohnA
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Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Tony Miller has real linen in stock. I like the Kanoyama zukka (after softening it) better than linen post jnat, it seems to smooth the edge a bit wheras linen does boost the keenness, which is not always a good thing.
Cheers, Steve
Cheers, Steve
Not always the case, of course... and even if it were, having that point of reference doesn't help you?
Which is also the case with knives... at least as you move up in refinement.
Was knife honing a help with razor honing? Certainly. In the same way that knowing how to ride a Ducati is helpful in riding a Vespa. Razor honing a perfect razor is laughably easy... but as problems arise... the way you fix them is usually right out of the knife guidebook. You may not go coarse on your knives (and other tools) to remove chips, So yeah, losing that level of material removal through excessive pressure (raising a massive burr and wiping it) is going to force a small amount of adjustment for you, but most people I know do drop onto coarse hones to remove chips and regrind. Many go to wheels, depending on the knives.
I don't think I've ever seen a knife guy struggle to learn razors beyond their failing to believe that it can be as EASY as it is. I've had to promise a few that yes, you really do just lay the razor flat and run it over the abrasive surface until you get the results you want... it's that easy. Some do have a REALLY hard time grasping that.
The thing is, there is nothing to learn to hone a razor without problems. The skill requirement was designed out of them. Yes, skill can make your process more efficient or better, but it's not required to take a razor from dull to sharp. I could stand over someone who had never touch a razor with a flawless razor, and given proper sharpening implements, describe to them in seconds how to make that razor sharp. And if they listened, or if I were there to correct them where they didn't; they'd have a sharp razor in a few minutes. This isn't skill. This is just the basic knowledge of the process they're performing and the willingness to insist they do it properly. But not knowing where they aren't following direction, and not knowing where their razor (or their tools) diverge from ideal or familiar layers complexity upon it that makes this process inadequate to do over the forums... which is why we amble around making guesses at what is wrong, or what the user is doing wrong when people ask us for help. It's not that the process itself requires a skill. It's simply that there are variables and complexities that may or may not be in play in every particular case that we often can't accurately identify. That's where skill comes into play... but that's almost if not exactly the same skills involved in sharpening every other tool in existence.
In other words, many razors have problems, and the more problematic they are, the more you fall back on the techniques that are protocol for other tools. So I can't fathom either people with real knife/tool honing experience having problems with razors OR people feeling that such experience didn't serve them with razors.
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Try a less heavy slurry maybe. Remember in the slurry lurks loose garnets that are crashing into the edge dulling it. Less might be more?
Yes, I think the more likely culprit is the unfamiliarity with how to hone on a coticule (particularly dilucot which is definitely a learned skill) than with how to hone a razor. He seems confident when he says he's set his bevel on his 1k. I'm sure he can establish that he's performed the necessary honing on his 6k. His problem seems to be going to heavy slurry after his 6k. If the 6k is a good quality JIS rated stone, then almost any coticule in existence should be able to pick right up on water. I don't own any coticules I can't go to water on coming off an 8k DMT (3 micron avg particle size ~equivalent in particle size to 4k JIS)... nor can I remember any I've owned in the past. Yes some may be a touch faster if I start with a VERY light slurry... but heavy slurry is just undoing much/most/all of your work on the 6k, maybe/probably (depending on the stone and just how heavy we're talking here) even some of the 1k work. I'd be happy to grab my 6k SP and confirm that any of my 60ish coticules can finish a razor on only water off it if necessary... but I'm absolutely confident such is the case.
The one question I'd have is if John is familiar with honing extremely low-angled tools (<25* total angle)... as he may actually not be able to TELL how sharp his razor is. The TPT (and other tests) off a perfectly sharp razor could easily feel dull to someone who is exclusively familiar with 50* knives... right up until he notices that he's bleeding.
Also, since you're concerned about the initial shave I'll pitch in this advice. Be more concerned about consistency across the edge than the performance at any one point. Gold dollars aren't notorious for bad steel. They're notorious for bad grinds. So making sure you don't have a few mm here or there that just aren't getting honed is worth the time it takes.
The one question I'd have is if John is familiar with honing extremely low-angled tools (<25* total angle)... as he may actually not be able to TELL how sharp his razor is. The TPT (and other tests) off a perfectly sharp razor could easily feel dull to someone who is exclusively familiar with 50* knives... right up until he notices that he's bleeding.
Also, since you're concerned about the initial shave I'll pitch in this advice. Be more concerned about consistency across the edge than the performance at any one point. Gold dollars aren't notorious for bad steel. They're notorious for bad grinds. So making sure you don't have a few mm here or there that just aren't getting honed is worth the time it takes.
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Oh and also... stropping. Stropping is necessary for straight razors. There's really no way around it. While few other tools (if any) require it in the same way (though some certainly are able to benefit from it of course). It's possible that this sense of "not sharp enough" is from not stropping or not effectively stropping (not the right technique or strop).
- Thread starter
- #27
SliceofLife and Kent,
Thank you for the information and your input. As previously stated, I can get an edge sharp enough to shave with. However, after seeing the results that many are getting with coticules, I have a problem with accepting "sharp enough". I can shave with it, I did it yesterday afternoon. The issue is that it is not a very keen edge and it does produce a decent amount of tug, with the associated razor-burn.
After doing much research the past few days I think I have been able to pinpoint a few variables that may be holding me back:
First, as you both have stated, I feel that the method that I have been using to hone on my coticule mat be holding me back, this is the one-stone or dulicot. After researching the forum here, watching a few "tube" videos by drmatt357, and talking to Jerrod I found that this method may serve some well, however I'd be better off eliminating the variable of the slurry entirely. By setting the bevel on 1k, and then progressing then to the 6k it is only a hindrance to introduce additional abrasive properties (aka slurry). Water and the coticule itself is how I will proceed from thus far.
Secondly, I know another issue is pressure or should I say pressure consistency. I have huge hands so I'm not that nimble to begin with. In addition, I have an issue with my central nervous system which makes it quite difficult for me to "feel" the amount of pressure I am applying, especially when it comes to light pressure. So this is something that I will just need to work at and develop a muscle memory for.
And the last variable that I have concern about is stropping. After speaking with many seasoned straight shavers I am finding that stropping on linen/webbing/cotton provides a good boost to the keenness of an edge. As I am just starting I have only been using a poor man's strop from Larry @whipped dog. I feel that the edge I currently produce could likely be polished/refined to the keenness level I am looking for with the simple addition of 50-100 passes on a fire-hose linen strop after the coticule. I will try to pick up a dual linen/bridal next month or so to see if this indeed the case.
I want to thank everyone very much for all your support and suggestions. You have all given me many great suggestion and I now have a few variables to experiment with. I feel very confident that after making a few changes to my method/technique I will be able to produce the level of keenness that I'm looking for. Have a great Sunday everyone.
Thank you for the information and your input. As previously stated, I can get an edge sharp enough to shave with. However, after seeing the results that many are getting with coticules, I have a problem with accepting "sharp enough". I can shave with it, I did it yesterday afternoon. The issue is that it is not a very keen edge and it does produce a decent amount of tug, with the associated razor-burn.
After doing much research the past few days I think I have been able to pinpoint a few variables that may be holding me back:
First, as you both have stated, I feel that the method that I have been using to hone on my coticule mat be holding me back, this is the one-stone or dulicot. After researching the forum here, watching a few "tube" videos by drmatt357, and talking to Jerrod I found that this method may serve some well, however I'd be better off eliminating the variable of the slurry entirely. By setting the bevel on 1k, and then progressing then to the 6k it is only a hindrance to introduce additional abrasive properties (aka slurry). Water and the coticule itself is how I will proceed from thus far.
Secondly, I know another issue is pressure or should I say pressure consistency. I have huge hands so I'm not that nimble to begin with. In addition, I have an issue with my central nervous system which makes it quite difficult for me to "feel" the amount of pressure I am applying, especially when it comes to light pressure. So this is something that I will just need to work at and develop a muscle memory for.
And the last variable that I have concern about is stropping. After speaking with many seasoned straight shavers I am finding that stropping on linen/webbing/cotton provides a good boost to the keenness of an edge. As I am just starting I have only been using a poor man's strop from Larry @whipped dog. I feel that the edge I currently produce could likely be polished/refined to the keenness level I am looking for with the simple addition of 50-100 passes on a fire-hose linen strop after the coticule. I will try to pick up a dual linen/bridal next month or so to see if this indeed the case.
I want to thank everyone very much for all your support and suggestions. You have all given me many great suggestion and I now have a few variables to experiment with. I feel very confident that after making a few changes to my method/technique I will be able to produce the level of keenness that I'm looking for. Have a great Sunday everyone.
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- #28
You are moderately correct in this statement, the TPT is useless to me as I have trouble with the nerves in my hands. I primarily rely on the AHT and HHT to judge the keenness of my blades.
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Ahh, I've never tried a HHT on any blade over the mid-high twenties, so I can't really say how it'll compare on a razor vs most knives. Maybe you know, but if not, it's a consideration. Now I'm curious to try a HHT on one of my heavier angled knives.
Also, as for stropping, again I can't believe this, but I've never gone straight to plain leather off a stone... so I can't comment on how much linen will do for you. I DO go Suede->Leather on my Kana #3 and the edges are indistinguishable from off my Linen->Leather strops... so I SUSPECT that enough time on Leather is probably effectively the same... but I've never had cause to test it (I own plenty of linen, so no real concern for me other than to satisfy curiosity. But depending on how much time you spend stropping, it seems quite likely to me that picking up a piece of linen will help your results out significantly.
And if pressure is an issue for you like you say... that is going to be significant with most coticules. There are a few very unusual coti's out there that don't respond significantly to pressure... but most respond to pressure somewhat similarly to how they respond to slurry. In fact a member here used to use pressure on a coticule that didn't autoslurry as a substitute for raising a slurry in Dilucot (It was called "PacoCot", his ID was Paco). Ironically it may be easier if you want to use a slurry to get a stone that heavily autoslurries under slight pressure (usually these are stones people have trouble finishing on), and use whether or not you're raising slurry during honing as a gauge of your pressure until you build the necessary muscle memory to keep consistently light pressure without having to feel it out... though I don't know the specifics of your issue or if this sort of fix would help or even be possible... just a thought. But frankly, if pressure is an issue for you, then coticules sadly may not be the ideal finisher for you. I hope you do work it out, but if not a stone like a thuringian or a moderate-slow Jnat may be a better solution.
If pressure is only an issue with very light pressure, and going to a somewhat light pressure (like one would use on a diamond plate with knives) allows consistency, then I personally would suggest trying a translucent or surgical black (or a vintage "hard") arkansas. As they actually LIKE a little bit more pressure when finishing razors compared to most alternatives.
Also, as for stropping, again I can't believe this, but I've never gone straight to plain leather off a stone... so I can't comment on how much linen will do for you. I DO go Suede->Leather on my Kana #3 and the edges are indistinguishable from off my Linen->Leather strops... so I SUSPECT that enough time on Leather is probably effectively the same... but I've never had cause to test it (I own plenty of linen, so no real concern for me other than to satisfy curiosity. But depending on how much time you spend stropping, it seems quite likely to me that picking up a piece of linen will help your results out significantly.
And if pressure is an issue for you like you say... that is going to be significant with most coticules. There are a few very unusual coti's out there that don't respond significantly to pressure... but most respond to pressure somewhat similarly to how they respond to slurry. In fact a member here used to use pressure on a coticule that didn't autoslurry as a substitute for raising a slurry in Dilucot (It was called "PacoCot", his ID was Paco). Ironically it may be easier if you want to use a slurry to get a stone that heavily autoslurries under slight pressure (usually these are stones people have trouble finishing on), and use whether or not you're raising slurry during honing as a gauge of your pressure until you build the necessary muscle memory to keep consistently light pressure without having to feel it out... though I don't know the specifics of your issue or if this sort of fix would help or even be possible... just a thought. But frankly, if pressure is an issue for you, then coticules sadly may not be the ideal finisher for you. I hope you do work it out, but if not a stone like a thuringian or a moderate-slow Jnat may be a better solution.
If pressure is only an issue with very light pressure, and going to a somewhat light pressure (like one would use on a diamond plate with knives) allows consistency, then I personally would suggest trying a translucent or surgical black (or a vintage "hard") arkansas. As they actually LIKE a little bit more pressure when finishing razors compared to most alternatives.
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- Thread starter
- #30
Neither have I, perhaps I should have re-worded my statement. The AHT and HHT are my primary measure of "razor" keenness. Lol, it's early and I need to put on another pot of coffee.
Oh, I gotcha. HHT is a tricky one for a lot of people until you develop your own particular technique and familiarity around that technique. It's quite notorious for one persons HHT being virtually useless to everyone else. Someone can show me a HHT that they expect to impress the hell out of me and it won't mean much to me and vice versa. So be careful about putting too much stock into it until you've been using it awhile and sort of taught/invented your own particular technique around it. I use it myself (after almost a decade honing razors and using HHT) almost exclusively to check that I'm hitting problem spots when I'm too lazy to put the razor under the scope and using a progression with similar levels of bevel polish between stages (in other words I rarely use it any more). Arm hair test (for me) would serve your purposes better. I like to keep a razor flush on the skin, and very... let's say "casually" swipe it down. If it shaves a clean swipe of hair completely smooth without feeling like it's doing anything at all... that's a good razor. If it feels like it's shaving... it's not there yet. I want a sensation that makes me surprised when I look down and see that the hair is gone.
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- #32
Thanks for all your help, and as you stated I may just be better off with a 5++ jnat or an arkansas. As for stropping I have been doing 100 passes on the poor man's whipped dog right off the coticule. I've only had my straight and coticule for a few weeks, so I'm still extremely green. And with all this new information I see that I have a lot of learning to do.
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Well truth be told I also like edges sharper than my skill level was able to achieve with my coticule. Instead I went to stropping on Balsa sprayed with .5/.25 poly diamond. That proved to be too effective and seemed to undo the natural stone feel of the coticule. I then tried CBN on hanging leather, which is what I use now.
I also use this after my Jnats as well. After doing my best on the stones I strop 10-20 times on .25 then 10-20 times on .1 CBN. Also have .05 and .025 poly diamond and tried used it on my Jnat as a slurry, but all it seemed to do was super polish the stone and bevel. This makes my edges eye-wateringly keen. It requires a light touch as you would a DE or feather shavette but it's the only way I like it. Huge YMMV of course.
I also use this after my Jnats as well. After doing my best on the stones I strop 10-20 times on .25 then 10-20 times on .1 CBN. Also have .05 and .025 poly diamond and tried used it on my Jnat as a slurry, but all it seemed to do was super polish the stone and bevel. This makes my edges eye-wateringly keen. It requires a light touch as you would a DE or feather shavette but it's the only way I like it. Huge YMMV of course.
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- #34
I'm going to have to start keeping an eye out for another straight or two that I can practice on to ensure that the geometry on this Gold Dollar isn't off. I spent around two hours on it earlier and I had it sticking to the coticule like it was covered in molasses. Once I was certain that it couldn't possibly get any stickier I kept going. But now under a running faucet and using only enough pressure to keep the blade on the stone. I did this for another 50 or so strokes then stropped 25 passes on a piece of webbing I came up with and 50 on leather. My end result was the exact same edge, no better or worse, that I have been producing on the Gold Dollar, using every other technique, since day one (given I've only been at it for a few weeks). In theory, with as much experimentation of variables that I have done, I should be seeing varying results either good or bad - not the exact same edge over and over! I need to run another blade or two across the stone to confirm or deny my own incompetence. Thanks again for all the suggestions and support.
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How long have you been straight shaving for? If not for very long then sometimes technique has a little to do with the face feel of an edge. A steep angle will catch whiskers and pop them, while a flatter angle will tend to catch less and slice through them. Holding the blade at an angle to the direction of the pass will also encourage a slicing vs chopping action. Think sashimi knife vs. bone chopping cleaver. Your edge will also degrade astonishing fast with a steep angle. You sound like a technically savvy guy so I am sure you will have your eureka moment.
Thanks for this. I thought it so good that I printed it off and this afternoon settled down to hone a couple of my troublesome razors (I have quite a lot of them).
And yes I used a Sharpie and lapped my stones &c., &c. and I have a 7x glass and a 40x loupe and checked the edge.
And after "setting the bevel" the blades had hardly only to look at a tomato to cut it. However on finishing the job the blades gave me a very poor shave fpr the first couple of passes. They can cut tomatoes OK but not my barbed-wire whiskers. So I had to resort to one of the razors that I bought - not shave ready - and saved the day with a pretty good shave!
With what I have spent on stones I could have had a dozen razors professionally done and so I am beginning to lose heart really. I do love the process and experience of a good SR shave, but how to get one? I really simply cannot afford any more stones - cheaper to buy razors!
All the best
C.
Hey C start up a new thread with your honing regiment so we can comment there, if you haven't already started one that is.
Thanks.
I did: it was called "Driving me Potty" At that time I just had cheap Chinese rubbish stones (a 1k that acts like a 200, a 3k/8k and a 2k/5k) and my Welsh slates. Since then I have bought King 800 and 6000 with a smart holder, an expensive Bester Imanishi 8k and finally a vintage small coticule. The Chinese junk has to be lapped every ten minutes. Bloody useless rubbish, fit only for ballast.
Haven't got anywhere with the coticule despite some kind soul posting up a video which I studied carefully.
I am now only honing with tape; I have damaged a number of spines which is very depressing; how can one possibly set a bevel without trashing the spine? Can't be done - obviously.
I have also bought quite a lot of tomatoes as I have virtually no hair left on my arms - I'll have to start on the legs next...
C.
C.
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If a few bevel resets are trashing your spines that much you are using too much pressure imo. Hollow grounds can flex a bit, so when you move to higher grits and use less pressure you will honing a different segment of the bevel as the blade will be flexing less at that point. Do you have any near wedges? They don't flex much at all and are easier to hone as you don't have to worry as much about pressure, although the extra metal makes it a longer process.
When you consider the thinness of a hollow ground blade, you don't need that much pressure to set the bevel, instead rely on the coarseness of the stone and larger number of passes.
When I do hollow grounds I place my fingers towards the edge of the blade and when making my pass twist the blade into the stone with the other hand. I press down just enough to feel the stone abrade the razor and go from there. In fact, on some warped blades the spine may not be contacting the stone across the entire razor either, since torquing the blade into the stone may raise the spine just a bit on one area. Some people don't even place any fingers on the blade at all and hold the stone in one hand, razor in the other.
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- #40
I've had this Gold Dollar for about two weeks and I managed to shave with it this afternoon, with quite a bit of tugging, by stropping it on pasted webbing .1 x 50/ .3 x 75 and then a hundred licks on the leather strop. This made the razor just barely keen enough to clip a hanging hair at 1/16" - 1/8" and treetop at the same. My technique is not much to be desired yet, though this is not my primary issue just yet. I'm not gauging the keenness by face-feel but by AHT and HHT, both of which should be easily passed with a razor fresh off a coticule without stropping or pasting.
Take this morning for example, I found the coticules sweet spot (water only) and maxed it out. I had the razor sticking to the stone like it had been glued there, and over about 100 or so passes I incrementaly lightened the pressure to absolute zero. With how sticky the straight felt when I finished, It should have given me a moderately keen edge at least - but when I took it off the stone to check it with a HHT and AHT it failed (would not clip a hanging hair period, and would only trim arm hair when the razor was applied directly to the skin in a shaving manner with fair pressure). Through a 30x loupe the edge looks even and well-polished with only minuscule scratches remaining, no gouges/dings/chips. Compared to photos I've seen online of other of keen edges, my edge looks as if it should be plenty keen... but it is not. I may just put this Gold Dollar behind me for now, as to not discourage myself any more than I have thus far. Instead I will try to find a cheap vintage or two that I can practice on to see if I have different results with a different razor. So far the razor is nearly the only variable that I have not been able to experiment with.
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