Did I destroy my smiling wedge?

SecretAsianMan · Sep 21, 2016

I'm bought this wedge from an antique store knowing I would have to hone from scratch. I think I did not roll the razor enough, and am making the edge too straight relatively to the spine.

Is it fixable? (pictures to come, on my phone right now)

SecretAsianMan · Sep 21, 2016

mglindo · Sep 21, 2016

It is fixable if you send it out to have it professionally honed until you get better. Maybe you can find a good mentor to help you.

SliceOfLife · Sep 21, 2016

That's kind of what those razors look like if you hone them without tape. Others have suggested that they were likely honed with the spine lifted (someone said maybe a thumbnail under it) traditionally. I don't think using a more pronounced rolling stroke would have done much to make it look better. If it's sharp, I'd say you did well. Basically... if your hone is contacting the edge for the full length of the blade... you're rolling enough.

Legion · Sep 22, 2016

That is how the blade is. Is the bevel set? If so, finish honing and shave. If not, bung on a layer of tape and make a micro bevel.

rideon66 · Sep 22, 2016

I hone my wedge razors without tape usually and this is kind of what you get. Sometimes the bevel width will be a little more squirrelly and it will show on the spine too. Some are wider and some narrower. Yours does seem a little wide which could be either just that razor or you used a little too much pressure. If the bevel is set and everything works well you are good. It is just a looks thing. Using tape can make it easier and look better, but I find in the end performance wise no tape gives me a better longer lasting edge. It is all trade offs though.

SecretAsianMan · Sep 22, 2016

Thanks folks. I think my initial attempts did use too much pressure. The bevel is set through to the last half inch (where) you can still see sharpie at the toe.

I noticed that if I exaggerate my stroke to lead heavily with the tip, I can start to get this part of the razor. I'm leading by 45 degrees or more, probably. It's also significantly more effort than sharpening a straighter edge razor in terms of the attention I have to pay o my hand orientation.

This is my first wedge/quarter hollow, I'm determined to see it through. Also breaking in a dmt extra extra fine while I'm at it.

SecretAsianMan · Sep 22, 2016

rideon66 said:
I hone my wedge razors without tape usually and this is kind of what you get. Sometimes the bevel width will be a little more squirrelly and it will show on the spine too. Some are wider and some narrower. Yours does seem a little wide which could be either just that razor or you used a little too much pressure. If the bevel is set and everything works well you are good. It is just a looks thing. Using tape can make it easier and look better, but I find in the end performance wise no tape gives me a better longer lasting edge. It is all trade offs though.

I'm leaning no tape on this one. I find the residue clogs my hones. Or does that mean too much pressure?

SliceOfLife · Sep 22, 2016

What kind of tape and what kind of hones? I don't hone much... but I never had problems with hones clogging on 3m electical tape... and I used it with DMT's... which don't slough material. I'm sure they'd clog eventually... but not in the time it takes to hone a razor, and I cleaned them off afterwards.

wetshaveyyc · Sep 22, 2016

SecretAsianMan said:
Also breaking in a dmt extra extra fine while I'm at it.

Before you use the 8000, have a look at the following pictures:

Food for thought if you're wondering why it feels like the blade degrades after the 8000 (extra extra fine) instead of improving. This is using DMT's after a rigorous break-in session using the shank of a screwdriver.

These DMT's have a reverse effect from the expected outcome (higher grit means better refined). I personally have a DMT-diaflat 95 (roughly 160 grit) and conducted an experiment where I honed a razor on it like as if it was my 8000 or 12000 grit synthetic stone, and went to my pasted strop progression,(http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...s-Progression-Thread-Synths-Pastes-Spray-HHT5)

I achieved a comfortable shave off of it and was blown away.

Do you have a DMT 325 or 600?

SecretAsianMan · Sep 22, 2016

Interesting, I have used the diafolds from 325, 625, 1200 and 8k followed by chinese 12k and been happy.

I recently got the duo sharp 2x6 extra course/coure, fine/eitra fine and 8x3 xxfine because I had such great luck with my diafolds before.

Is the current consensus that the full size xxf isn't a good product?

SecretAsianMan · Sep 22, 2016

SliceOfLife said:
What kind of tape and what kind of hones? I don't hone much... but I never had problems with hones clogging on 3m electical tape... and I used it with DMT's... which don't slough material. I'm sure they'd clog eventually... but not in the time it takes to hone a razor, and I cleaned them off afterwards.

Wish I could remember; it was several years ago. I can say it was a dmt diafold, not sure which grit. 325 maybe?

wetshaveyyc · Sep 22, 2016

SecretAsianMan said:
Is the current consensus that the full size xxf isn't a good product?

No, the information I'm showing is new, and I think I can confidently say that everybody using a 8k DMT follows up with something else before stropping.

Disclaimer: I've never used the 8k DMT, but the info is out there, so I didn't buy one. Use your own judgement and experiment!

wetshaveyyc · Sep 22, 2016

SecretAsianMan said:
Interesting, I have used the diafolds from 325

Try going to 12k chinese and stropping. You might be surprised.

wetshaveyyc · Sep 22, 2016

Here are the two corresponding side view pictures of the same I posted above.

SliceOfLife · Sep 22, 2016

And I know literally dozens if not hundreds of users who can manifestly prove that "experiment" ludicrously inaccurate. Apparently yourself included. DMT 8000 works for you. You know it works for you. Don't listen to some nonsense telling you that it shouldn't. "Experts" used to say that the low grit DMT's chipped razors. I called them out on their BS then. Now if they make the same claims, they are made into laughing stocks. Now people are saying that the EXACT SAME HONES that used to chip razors can finish razors and that the 8k will chip razors. Eventually people will just have to learn how to hone and stop blaming their results on anything other than their own incompetence.

Being able to set a bevel and then use pastes to get it shaving is nothing new or exclusive to DMT's. It's a big part of why pastes are used. They let people bypass most honing and the materials and skill required by minimizing the amount of material necessary for removal to get a razor shaving, albeit with a different geometry to the bevel and edge than would be achieved through honing.

Diamond plates will be the worst for clogging from tape, but if you use a good quality tape, it shouldn't interfere with honing on the higher grits, though the C and lower may be tougher... but at those grits it becomes as much about you not digging the spine in as it does about the nature of the hone. Just clean the plate on occasion.

wetshaveyyc · Sep 22, 2016

SliceOfLife said:
And I know literally dozens if not hundreds of users who can manifestly prove that "experiment" ludicrously inaccurate. Apparently yourself included. DMT 8000 works for you. You know it works for you. Don't listen to some nonsense telling you that it shouldn't. "Experts" used to say that the low grit DMT's chipped razors. I called them out on their BS then. Now if they make the same claims, they are made into laughing stocks. Now people are saying that the EXACT SAME HONES that used to chip razors can finish razors and that the 8k will chip razors. Eventually people will just have to learn how to hone and stop blaming their results on anything other than their own incompetence.

Being able to set a bevel and then use pastes to get it shaving is nothing new or exclusive to DMT's. It's a big part of why pastes are used. They let people bypass most honing and the materials and skill required by minimizing the amount of material necessary for removal to get a razor shaving, albeit with a different geometry to the bevel and edge than would be achieved through honing.

Diamond plates will be the worst for clogging from tape, but if you use a good quality tape, it shouldn't interfere with honing on the higher grits, though the C and lower may be tougher... but at those grits it becomes as much about you not digging the spine in as it does about the nature of the hone. Just clean the plate on occasion.

Have a closer look at the pictures above (everybody), and ask yourself the question: "am I in denial?"

The path to improvement lies in accepting your failures as successful revelations.

SliceOfLife · Sep 22, 2016

You can give a dog a steak, take a picture of the results and say that the meat was bad if you like. Or you can realize that the dog isn't a chef.
Because one person is unskilled at using a DMT and took very detailed pictures of it does not mean that his results should be given any weight at all when put next to thousands upon thousands of users who at a cursory glance at his results can tell that he is the problem, not the plate. The DMT 8000 is an aggressive cutter. If you can't properly hone, an aggressive cutter is going to do damage. A scalpel is a weapon in the hands of someone who isn't a surgeon, but few people are able to attempt surgery with no experience, then lay the blame on the scalpel. You can point to pictures of bad honing all you want. The fact that someone can do damage to a razor on a hone is not in any way the revelation you think it is. Any more than your belief that the ability of abrasive stropping to refine extremely poor edges is the revolutionary discovery you seem to think. These are fundamental things that people who've been doing this awhile understand. A puppy-dog like devotion to a set of pictures demonstrating one users failings with a hone is not in any way going to improve your abilities, and though you'll certainly find success misleading users who aren't experienced with them, you're going to have a hard sell convincing people who have used them that this hone you've never used is terrible because one guy once took pictures of an edge he managed to destroy on one.

wetshaveyyc · Sep 22, 2016

SliceOfLife said:
You can give a dog a steak, take a picture of the results and say that the meat was bad if you like. Or you can realize that the dog isn't a chef.
Because one person is unskilled at using a DMT and took very detailed pictures of it does not mean that his results should be given any weight at all when put next to thousands upon thousands of users who at a cursory glance at his results can tell that he is the problem, not the plate. The DMT 8000 is an aggressive cutter. If you can't properly hone, an aggressive cutter is going to do damage. A scalpel is a weapon in the hands of someone who isn't a surgeon, but few people are able to attempt surgery with no experience, then lay the blame on the scalpel. You can point to pictures of bad honing all you want. The fact that someone can do damage to a razor on a hone is not in any way the revelation you think it is. Any more than your belief that the ability of abrasive stropping to refine extremely poor edges is the revolutionary discovery you seem to think. These are fundamental things that people who've been doing this awhile understand. A puppy-dog like devotion to a set of pictures demonstrating one users failings with a hone is not in any way going to improve your abilities, and though you'll certainly find success misleading users who aren't experienced with them, you're going to have a hard sell convincing people who have used them that this hone you've never used is terrible because one guy once took pictures of an edge he managed to destroy on one.

The readers of this thread should understand that I've had comfortable shaves off of a small Jnat natural (which takes "a lot of skill" and spent ALOT of time with), Japanese synthetics up to 20k, and various paste progressions. It's important to be open to all the suggestions on this forum, and find your own reality on what works best for you.

SliceOfLife · Sep 22, 2016

Your ability to shave with various edges has no bearing on your familiarity or experience with a hone which you've never used.

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Did I destroy my smiling wedge?

SecretAsianMan

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SliceOfLife

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rideon66

SecretAsianMan

SecretAsianMan

SliceOfLife

wetshaveyyc

SecretAsianMan

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