Excellent advice on my axe.
Pasted strop bias?
- Thread starter jimmy538
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Excellent advice on my axe.
One thing overlooked in this discussion is cost of good finishing stones. I said earlier I get a good edge off balsa and crox. Would I prefer a nicer edge, yeah possibly. Can I afford a nice finisher? I've browsed various sites and the bay, short answer is I can't currently toss the big $$ I see on what look to be good stones. I may have to use my 12K and balsa a bit more often, but as long as I get decent edges that is where I will stay.
Now to derail this a bit farther. I picked up a Shumate barber hone for a few bucks several months ago, mostly for display. Appears to be NOS. I've read these are anything from snake oil to the bees knees, so I've never attempted to use it. What's the opinion of this discussion group?
Now to derail this a bit farther. I picked up a Shumate barber hone for a few bucks several months ago, mostly for display. Appears to be NOS. I've read these are anything from snake oil to the bees knees, so I've never attempted to use it. What's the opinion of this discussion group?
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Like anything else. Try it and see. I dont use barber hones so no idea. But as you said, theres great reviews from some and bad reviews from others like everything else. Low price range stuff tends to take a beating. I guess when you spend big you have to justify it whether the results are there or not. One of my favorite jnats only cost me 60 bucks. It is rather drab, but works as well or better than the fancy ones i have.
I was at the same place. I have been honing on naturals exclusively for about 8-9 months. I have been getting great results,but for some reason decided to use pasted strops on two razors. One I maxed out on a coti first and the other was an experiment with a barber's hone. The barbers hone needed a little help lol. I actually believe that in the beginning I was using the pasted strops to make subpar edges tolerable. Now that I have more experience honing they seem to add a nice level of keenness. I'll experiment more. Still chasing that perfect edge
It's certainly possible that a conservative application of the right paste would do just that, but that's not what it seems most people recommend paste for... rather they're recommended typically as an alternative to finishing stones, usually to people who don't have success with stones. I couldn't count on both hands the number of guys who came to me for help with their new coticule, when they were trying to experiment with a stone finish... often after months of honing with a paste finish, only to check their razor, and it won't even shave arm hair.
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Sounds as though they needed to start at setting the bevel. It's hard sometimes to get ideas/thoughts across. Everyone has varying levels of experience that changes their perception and even terms like sharp, keen, harsh can mean different things to different people. I know that my standards for a "good" edge have definitely changed over the last few years.
Your suggestion about sculpting a controlled amount of convexing is interesting. I once achieved a super sharp but harsh edge off a synth. But after 2-3 shaves with stropping on plain leather the edge mellowed out quite a bit and the cutting efficiency actually seemed to improve. I suspect that it was this type of convexing that was happening through normal use.
It can help but too much of a good thing can also be bad. I once tried some felt with diamond spray that was a bit more "mooshy" and fuzzy that what I usually use......It was like I jointed the edge on glass. After 5 laps I could not shave a hair on my arm (even with pressure)! I think it was wrapping up around the edge as I slid the razor along the felt. Recently I have been experimenting with balsa strops (Slash McCoy posts). It is very sharp, but I finish with .1 diamond on denim, otherwise the edge is a bit harsh. I think this is needed because the balsa is so non-compressible, the edge has no convexing. The whole micro-convexing issue is hotly debated in other threads, and I don't want to start a dust-up. This is just what works well for me.
Gentleman, this has clearly been an interesting discussion on the merits, or lack of merits, on the use of pasted strops. I have been a pretty avid knife user, collector and sharpener for years before I began honing razors a couple of years ago. I have always been of the opinion that stropping on leather, pasted or not, was detrimental to the apex of the bevel due to the spongy leather. I will always strop on the stone before moving to a higher grit, and in some cases, I will sharpen exclusively on a 1K and strop 6 to 8 times, then strop only on a 6k stone. This works well for my kitchen knives as it leaves a toothy edge that works well for vegetables. Maintaining the V is very import, and I never strop knives on anything except perhaps a cardboard box or newspaper on a wetstone.
When I started straight razor shaving, the hanging strop thing went against everything I had come to know about maintaining a sharp edge. But I incorporated it as I knew professionals had been doing this for centuries. The straight razor being honed to an angle of 14 to 15 degrees inclusive is twice as acute as my sharpest kitchen knife, so using a plain leather strop made some sense here to get the edge realigned after use. However, I have never adopted a pasted strop on my razors. I have no data to support or refute their use, it is just not something that fits with my understanding of sharp. When an edge falls short for me, it is time to go back to the finisher stone. If that does not bring it back fully, then perhaps back off to a mid range stone for some strokes, then on to the finisher again.
Theoretically, this method should maintain the set bevel forever, eliminating the need to have to reset it unless an accident causes damage. In my thinking, stropping with a pasted strop will change the edge geometry over time, resulting in a requirement to reset the bevel.
Convex edges are something I have utilized with certain knives. There is no doubt that the convex edge is stronger than the V edge at the same terminal acuteness of the bevel, but I do not see myself ever having to baton my razor through my whiskers
. They just are not that thick.
When I started straight razor shaving, the hanging strop thing went against everything I had come to know about maintaining a sharp edge. But I incorporated it as I knew professionals had been doing this for centuries. The straight razor being honed to an angle of 14 to 15 degrees inclusive is twice as acute as my sharpest kitchen knife, so using a plain leather strop made some sense here to get the edge realigned after use. However, I have never adopted a pasted strop on my razors. I have no data to support or refute their use, it is just not something that fits with my understanding of sharp. When an edge falls short for me, it is time to go back to the finisher stone. If that does not bring it back fully, then perhaps back off to a mid range stone for some strokes, then on to the finisher again.
Theoretically, this method should maintain the set bevel forever, eliminating the need to have to reset it unless an accident causes damage. In my thinking, stropping with a pasted strop will change the edge geometry over time, resulting in a requirement to reset the bevel.
Convex edges are something I have utilized with certain knives. There is no doubt that the convex edge is stronger than the V edge at the same terminal acuteness of the bevel, but I do not see myself ever having to baton my razor through my whiskers
. They just are not that thick.Really? I know tons of guys who strop knives on free strops (usually nailed to a work area and held up for a downward and away/up and towards motion). In fact I've always considered it pretty standard. Heck I knew guys who carried a strip of leather around for their pocket knives on trips. I can't say I've ever seen someone use a bench strop for a knife outside of in videos.
I became fascinated by sharpening knives as a boy. I would watch my father sharpen his hunting knife on Arkansas stones, and the resulting edge would wipe a swath of hair from his arms. He was also a carpenter in his younger years having gone to trade school upon returning from the Navy in WWII. He later worked as a journeyman carpenter with the same company my grandfather worked. He probably had a dozen chisels, three or four planes and a host of axes and other tools that were all amazingly sharp. I never once saw him take an edge to a piece of leather. As an adolescent, I spent hours on end trying to learn to sharpen knives free hand on Arkansas stones. Eventually I gained a respectable proficiency in this skill.
About 10 years ago, I got back into knives. My kids were all raised, and my nature is to have an interest in hobbies that I had denied myself when raising a family. I started buying and collecting knives. I also started to revisit the knife sharpening realm, and I became a student of various sharpening methods, and this was the first time I was introduced to synthetic water stones, JNats, ceramics and DMTs. At that time I came accross a knife maker by the name of Murray Carter. He hand forges his knives in the Japanese tradition having apprenticed, lived and worked in Japan. It was Murray's instruction that got me started in using synthetic water stones for sharpening knives, and I have pretty much adopted his philosophies regarding sharpening, and what makes a knife sharp. Partly because these philosophies are aligned with my observations as a child and watching my father sharpen.
I'm not saying that people do not get good results using a strop to keep a knife sharp, or to refresh an edge. I am saying that I am better served to take the knife back to the stone when it needs refreshed. To me, maintaining the V is where sharp comes from. A convex edge is a different story altogether.
About 10 years ago, I got back into knives. My kids were all raised, and my nature is to have an interest in hobbies that I had denied myself when raising a family. I started buying and collecting knives. I also started to revisit the knife sharpening realm, and I became a student of various sharpening methods, and this was the first time I was introduced to synthetic water stones, JNats, ceramics and DMTs. At that time I came accross a knife maker by the name of Murray Carter. He hand forges his knives in the Japanese tradition having apprenticed, lived and worked in Japan. It was Murray's instruction that got me started in using synthetic water stones for sharpening knives, and I have pretty much adopted his philosophies regarding sharpening, and what makes a knife sharp. Partly because these philosophies are aligned with my observations as a child and watching my father sharpen.
I'm not saying that people do not get good results using a strop to keep a knife sharp, or to refresh an edge. I am saying that I am better served to take the knife back to the stone when it needs refreshed. To me, maintaining the V is where sharp comes from. A convex edge is a different story altogether.
I have never used any sort of pasted strop, I know there are those that swear by them for maintaining edges and or doing that final polish but if I spend time to carefully work the slurry on one of my JNATS I personally want to see how my skill level is on getting the best edge possible just off the stone so I choose not to use any paste and just strop on good leather, my Honing Mentor has instilled upon me to use the K.I.S.S. method so for for it's 4K, 8K, finisher and strop then shave and if not good then repeat, YMMV
If it works for you, keep doing it. It doesn't matter what someone else says, does, or thinks. Someone else's personal experience - real or fabricated or imagined - has no bearing on anyone else.
Fact - some people use pastes and they like it.
Someone else thinks pastes suck.
Whatever - both of them probably shaved well today.
Using anything as a crutch is a crutch until it's not a crutch anymore. Most of that is about perspective and, IMO, making too much out of it is a waste of energy.
There's a great big world out there, and lots of people use pasted whatevers to sharpen and touch up.
I prefer to hone on stones - for several reasons. But I've shaved very well off of pasted edges too.
I'm not saying pasted edges are inherently great or bad - they're edges, if they're done well then they're done well. Period.
