Encyclopedia of razor edge images.

No, I actually just turned/torqued the edge down into the hone and did a quick "hop" spine leading into edge leading. Basically I replicated what someone who was desperate and frustrated would do to try and remove as much metal as quickly as possible... while also minimizing the distance the razor traveled to keep it under my 1 stroke promise. I also picked a razor I've kept around for kicks because of just how little elastic flex the edge has demonstrated. It's a fun razor to play around with. Had some kind of weird gimmicky electric treatment done to it when it was sold. It's called the "Electric" razor. Kind of funny having an "Electric" straight. I suspect the steel was forged using a -then newly discovered- electric process of some sort. It takes and holds an edge, but damned if it isn't a weird one to hone.
And nah, this was just trying to create a "crimp" in the edge that would become a wire.

Overhoning how I thought you meant (I don't generally use the term to describe anything so I don't want to say it's how I view it) would be if I were to take this eleven degree ground Crown and Sword Razor I've got on my desk and hone it to a full polish on my Nakayama Karasu. That Karasu leaves a pretty matte finish, but the largest defect is submicron off it, so it leaves a very thin edge. It would be "overhoned" because the edge wouldn't survive the first pass shaving. My second pass would chew my face up like I was shaving with a razor I just pulled from a shipwreck, the edge would be so broken up. Now, take this same razor and finish it on a coticule, or a Pierre or a Thuri or an Apache or a 6k JIS... and the edge would survive a shave just fine. Take the 15.5 degree Thomas Ellin "Vulcan" off my desk and hone it to the exact same point on the Karasu, and it'd survive the shave just fine. In that way, the Crown&Sword was "overhoned", but the Vulcan wasn't... despite the same edge being on both of them. That's the point I thought you were getting at initially.

That's exactly what I meant, what you just described.

Now we have to discuss "smooth". Just kidding.

JohnDee said:

Maybe over-refined is the word I should use what would result in a fragile edge and less than smooth shave.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what I thought you were trying to say. And yeah, that's a point I agree on. I definitely have some hones that "over-refine" certain razors because of the particulars of the angle and the steels properties... while they don't overhone sturdier razors (because of steel, geometry, or both). But why I don't want to call that "overhoning" is that overhoning implies that the amount of honing is the problem, and I disagree. I don't think honing should have a breakpoint. If you encounter that, I think there's a flaw in technique or the hone being used. I think a quality hone and a proper technique instead gives you a completion point, where any further honing creates insignificant changes from then on. To that end In the example I gave of the 11* razor and the Karasu. I DON'T think an acceptable solution is to just do a little bit of honing on the Karasu and thus avoid thinning the edge to the point that it is as sharp as it can be without suffering from the failure it did before during the shave. I think that's just a combination of razor and finish that are unsuitable together. Some people disagree and would consider knowing when to stop part of the skill of honing... and while I can appreciate that outlook, I'm a bit too OCD for that. Even if I hit it just perfect, it'd grate on my nerves just knowing that I didn't max the razor. Even if the resulting edge shaved just as well as the best any stone could possibly give me on that razor, I'd feel like I was sacrificing something just by not maxing out on that stone (even though I know the edge would fail). I'm much happier just considering the pair unsuitable together and finding the stones among my collection that give the best results when maxxed out with that razor. I suppose it's my version of fashionista's building their perfect outfits or the scent guys here finding the perfect match of aftershave and cologne, or whatever.

SliceOfLife said:

Yeah, that's what I thought you were trying to say. And yeah, that's a point I agree on. I definitely have some hones that "over-refine" certain razors because of the particulars of the angle and the steels properties... while they don't overhone sturdier razors (because of steel, geometry, or both). But why I don't want to call that "overhoning" is that overhoning implies that the amount of honing is the problem, and I disagree. I don't think honing should have a breakpoint. If you encounter that, I think there's a flaw in technique or the hone being used. I think a quality hone and a proper technique instead gives you a completion point, where any further honing creates insignificant changes from then on. To that end In the example I gave of the 11* razor and the Karasu. I DON'T think an acceptable solution is to just do a little bit of honing on the Karasu and thus avoid thinning the edge to the point that it is as sharp as it can be without suffering from the failure it did before during the shave. I think that's just a combination of razor and finish that are unsuitable together. Some people disagree and would consider knowing when to stop part of the skill of honing... and while I can appreciate that outlook, I'm a bit too OCD for that. Even if I hit it just perfect, it'd grate on my nerves just knowing that I didn't max the razor. Even if the resulting edge shaved just as well as the best any stone could possibly give me on that razor, I'd feel like I was sacrificing something just by not maxing out on that stone (even though I know the edge would fail). I'm much happier just considering the pair unsuitable together and finding the stones among my collection that give the best results when maxxed out with that razor. I suppose it's my version of fashionista's building their perfect outfits or the scent guys here finding the perfect match of aftershave and cologne, or whatever.

Click to expand...

This way, you will definitely learn all the ins and outs of your hones and razors.

When I started honing my own razors I always used the HHT as an indicator. Most of the edges that passed the HHT5 were harsh. As a beginner I used CrOx a lot. Later on I got a USB microscope that I used to chase the perfect edge. It all looked nice under the scope, but the edges were not smooth enough. After a bit of practice I could get nice edges without paste. On a day I started honing by feel and I didn't touched the scope for a long time. I never used the HHT test again except for an arm hair shave test (especially for bevel setting). Now my razors are smooth shavers and the funny thing is that when I look at the edge under the scope they look nice too.

For an outsider the razor honing hobby is just sharpening razors, but there are so many approaches to razor honing. Pastes, microscopes, natural, synthetic, etc. That's the fun part of all of this.

The shave off the 21* blade and SP 13k was surprisingly good. Much closer than I've gotten off a razor this fat before, though not as close as the SP usually gives... and the edge held up extremely well. Can barely see a difference. Definitely the level of polish helped with how dull the razor was more than I've been accustomed to, and definitely how dull the razor was helped the edge hold up. It still wasn't the best shave ever or anything. There was OK, but not exceptional comfort. And very good, but not exceptional closeness. Still, it was by far the best shave I've had from a razor this fat before. The razor being exactly the sort I tend to like apart from the high angle probably didn't hurt. I'll probably try it off the Karasu next. Eventually I'll have to decide if I want to grind the spine in or simply sell it off. It's a tough call. I really like the razor, but I do have an almost identical style and steel one already that is at an angle I like (~15.5*)... so it'd be hard to justify the work involved in changing this one.


Pics are: Off the stone, Off the strop, Post shave

SliceOfLife said:

Pics are: Off the stone, Off the strop, Post shave

Click to expand...

You do realize that all three of these pictures look almost exactly the same with nothing new revealing between the three of them? Was the purpose to show how redundant or invalid your scope results are?

SliceOfLife said:

the edge held up extremely well. Can barely see a difference.

Click to expand...

Why no, I hadn't considered that.

Here's a post shave image of the 21° razor off the Nakayama Karasu. This hone is fine enough that most razors under 15° have trouble holding an edge off it for a shave... (to contrast I can shave off 13° razors with most finishers, 11° with some). As you can see, this edge certainly had no problem with failure.

The shave was again, better than I would have expected before these tests. Closeness is somewhat below what I get from the same hone on 15-17° razors, but nowhere near as big of a difference as I've come to expect. The incredible level of polish gained much more sharpness than I would have guessed. And, unlike the SP13k shave that (while being more comfortable than typically off that hone) wasn't notable for its comfort; this shave demonstrated significant comfort. I would say that this edge is very usable; and is ahead of many edges I've managed on much lower grind razors off hones I consider capable finishers. What is notable, however, is that with some significantly less refined finishes, this razor does fall below what I consider acceptably sharp... so just as I can't/won't use the Karasu stone with my very fine (<15°) razors; I wouldn't consider this razor an acceptable shaver using many stones that with finer razors I'd consider finishers (many coticules and vintage barber's hones, possibly others). It takes the understanding I've come to over the years of matching particular steels and grinds of razors with stones they are best suited for to a degree I've not gone to before (Never got a good shave off a razor with this high an edge angle before). Also important to note in this discussion is just how good the steel on this razor is. It cuts incredibly cleanly. In general this razor has been performing on the hones very much to an ideal standard that most razors (even perfectly acceptable ones) can't. So while I will try to replicate this performance on other razors of similarly high edge angles as they come into my hands, I'm not overly optimistic that my results will be so stellar. I still expect I'll thin this blade somewhat at some point in time... but I'm leaning towards a much less significant change. In the 17.5-18.5° range, rather than the 15.5-16° I had been considering. I think there I will likely gain a significant amount of sharpness, hopefully without weakening the edge to the point where it begins to see noticeable damage after a single shave off these extremely high polishing stones.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Here's a Y/G Thuringian. I paid an ungodly amount for this stone. Too much to admit to. To give you an idea, an unlabeled 6x1.25" I was bidding on last month sold for $220. A labeled 5x2" last week sold for a steal at just over $500.

And here's a Y/G Pierre du Sud Ouest. This stone cost me $35, and I had one guy bid against me... he bid the minimum bid, then went away. So... yeah... I'm somewhat fond of these stones.

I promised some coticule images. So let's get those started. Three from the same coticule. The one modern Ardenne's coticule I've kept, not counting Les Lat's hybrids or rubbing stones. It's an ~12" of an unknown vein, though I suspect LNV. One of the most challenging coticules I've owned to Dilucot on. Very high level of what is known as "slurry dulling". The feedback makes me think of removing a band-aid (from someone else). It's not "suction", nor is it entirely "drag", but rather, mostly drag, with a distinctly back-end feel of suction behind the edge. Kind of like what the hand peeling a band-aid off would feel as it tugged at the band-aid and it slowly ripped away.

I should note that this stone is not representative of the Ardennes stones I've had. The La Vertes and Dressante's I had were in my opinion much easier stones to use than this one... I simply kept this one because it's size and shape make it more valuable in my eyes than other people's so it's not worthwhile to me to sell it... whereas the other Ardennes stones I had were more standard size/shapes and more valuable to others than they were to me.

Three pressure levels:

First, the standard pressure I'd use on a finishing hone that is not significantly affected/degraded by pressure (for example a Thuringian).

Second, what I feel is the appropriate pressure for finishing on this hone.

Third, what I feel most people challenged to finish on coticules attempt... the least amount of pressure possible while keeping the razor from rattling on and off the surface of the hone.

Notice the cross-hash scratches from freed garnets following the blade down the hone while cutting along the perpendicular draw from the X pattern motion. I suspect this tendency is part of what causes the severe slurry dulling. This was all done on clear water, so the number of freed garnets was minimal.

And I speak fairly frequently about my favorite coticules, which differentiate themselves from the lions share by providing edges that significantly outperform the average coticule edge. I've gotten quite a little collection of these going; and the vast majority are very similar... enough so that I strongly suspect they comprise a single vein or multiple extremely similar veins which are no longer mined. This however is an exception. It was posted in the ShowOff thread years ago and another member called it my "Driftwood" coticule. It's a very rough, rustic, hand cut piece with a very dark and thick BBW layer that almost looks like plain slate, capped with a thin coticule layer. The coticule layer feels similar to a very hard La Veinette I own; but lacks the speed of LV, and is somewhat inferior in honing sensation/feedback. However, the edge beats out a LV pretty significantly.

That's a very nice looking coticule edge. That must be a very sharp coticule edge.

It's sharper than average, but my Les Lat and my very dark and hard coticules take edges a step further, still. I'll get some pictures up from some of them soon. I'll also try and get a few of my more unusual coticules up, regardless of the edge, once my phone is back, so I can show the stones as well as the edge.

Here's one of the brown coticules. These stones are curious in that they would never be described as white, yellow, or tan, like most coticules. They are plainly brown. I don't think I've ever seen one with a backing. They are always very thin and always paddle stones. This particular one is a little more damaging to the edge than most just because of how hard it is to hone on. It's probably the smallest razor hone I actually ever use (I have smaller ones in my collection, but they're just cool little oddities I only use for laughs here and there) at ~ 120x20mm. Which would be somewhat difficult on a softer hone, but these stones are nearly as hard if not as hard as Les Lat Hybrid... meaning any subtle rocking or change in pressure on the stone will bang up the edge where it rides the corners of the hone. Luckily the other examples are not so narrow, simplifying use a great deal... though all are long and skinny paddle stones. It's the only use this vein/type of coticule may have been selected for, as all three examples I have fit this description. One being a Torrey "Old Rock", that certainly is not the same type of coticule usually sold under the old rock label.

Interesting. I've never tried a paddle coticule. Do you mean the brown coticules which changes it's color in sunlight?

I also have a coticule with brown lines it's a La Vieille Rouge. Honing on this coticule is a very strange experience. It almost has no feedback except for stickiness. It's very easy to finish a razor on this stone, but it takes a bit longer than the average coticule.

Did you ever used a La Verte? I've one. It's very hard and very slow, but is give a amazing (sharp) edge.

I have a few brownies. They are seriously hard and fine. None have backings

No, they don't get any paler with lapping, which La Grosse do.

Yeah I've had a few La Verte's. They were somewhat hard, but not in the way these stones are. Honing on these stones feels similar to honing on a spyderco; they're hard in that way.

Yes, La Grosse. That's the one I was talking about.

I've one La Verte and this is the only one I've ever had. This one is very hard and heavy. It has the same ringing sound as a spyderco uf when I knock on it with something metal.

SliceOfLife said:

Honing on these stones feels similar to honing on a spyderco; they're hard in that way.

Click to expand...

I've gotta try one of these. I have several of what I'd consider to be top notch cotis, but none can produce an edge like the pic you posted.
(At least not in my hands). I realize we don't shave with pictures, but still, that's impressive.