All the more reason to not carry it with an empty chamber.
Do you carry with a round in the chamber?
- Thread starter Toothpick
- Start date
It all depends on the design and construction of the weapon.
When I carried a baby Browning I would never chamber a round unless I were intending on discharging the weapon (i.e. at the range) as it is a sear firing pin gun. I've see too many sears slip and the firing pin slam into the primer causing the weapon to discharge.
For the last decade or so, I've carried a Seecamp which is a double action only hammer weapon. It is so safe to carry a round chambered that it would be foolish not to carry it charged.
Be safe. Know your weapon before you make the choice.
Simple Baby Browning
Seecamp Patent for safety.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US4428138.pdf
When I carried a baby Browning I would never chamber a round unless I were intending on discharging the weapon (i.e. at the range) as it is a sear firing pin gun. I've see too many sears slip and the firing pin slam into the primer causing the weapon to discharge.
For the last decade or so, I've carried a Seecamp which is a double action only hammer weapon. It is so safe to carry a round chambered that it would be foolish not to carry it charged.
Be safe. Know your weapon before you make the choice.
Simple Baby Browning
Seecamp Patent for safety.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US4428138.pdf
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Don't know about "sling shotting" being a bad idea necessarily. Some pistols are of a design where the slide will not lock back if a magazine is not in place. Actually tactical reloading in a combat situation often takes place prior to emptying a magazine. Now-Dropping the slide on a round already chambered is not a good idea at all. While attending Beretta Armorer school back in the 90s, the factory training staff made it quite clear that following that practice was hell on extractors
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Great post @jamesspo.
And +1 John. I have seen more AD's during the actual, "racking the slide" while attempting to ready the gun to shoot, than I have while it's actually being carried with one that is already in the chamber.
Almost 20 years of LE now, and training multiple hundreds of young officers for most of it. I have seen fail to fire's, fails to go into battery, fails to eject, double feeds, stove pipes and squibs, due to malfunction, ammo and operator error.
I have never seen an AD, where someone didn't pull the trigger when they where supposed to. I have seen many AD's where they pulled the trigger when they were NOT supposed to. And an external safety or starting on an empty chamber, would not of helped them. As Acme has said several times, you can't fix stupid.
Control your mind, control your finger. And your gun, will always be under your control. Chambered or not.
Plain & Simple.
And +1 John. I have seen more AD's during the actual, "racking the slide" while attempting to ready the gun to shoot, than I have while it's actually being carried with one that is already in the chamber.
Almost 20 years of LE now, and training multiple hundreds of young officers for most of it. I have seen fail to fire's, fails to go into battery, fails to eject, double feeds, stove pipes and squibs, due to malfunction, ammo and operator error.
I have never seen an AD, where someone didn't pull the trigger when they where supposed to. I have seen many AD's where they pulled the trigger when they were NOT supposed to. And an external safety or starting on an empty chamber, would not of helped them. As Acme has said several times, you can't fix stupid.
Control your mind, control your finger. And your gun, will always be under your control. Chambered or not.
Plain & Simple.
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My wife's LCP, my LCP and my two oldest daughters LCP's did the exact same thing when they were new. I polished all 4 feed ramps and it hasn't happened since.
To me, you might as well be carrying a rock. I've trained to rack one, I've done it in shooting scenarios, and the noticeable difference in time doesn't make it practical to not have a round chambered at all times.
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simon1
Self Ignored by Vista
Yup, Dan...the 21 foot rule. And that applies to a holstered weapon with one up the pipe...or even a revolver.
And that just applies to someone you can see charging you and you know has a knife. What is even more dangerous is a street wise punk or an ex-con who palms, or otherwise conceals, the sharp and you won't know it until they are shoving the shiv in your kidney area.
I wasn't going to link this stuff...but this is a very serious subject. Keep that LCP fully loaded there Jason. The odds of you ever having to use it are very slim...but if you ever need it....
And I'm not a Mossad that uses a sidearm as a secondary weapon...and I don't carry a highly trained Israeli commando, that has been trained to rack the slide on the draw, with me either.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/183
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ammunition-and-empty-chambers/
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...chamber-empty-israeli-carry-re-revisited.html
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/empty-chamber-carry/
And that just applies to someone you can see charging you and you know has a knife. What is even more dangerous is a street wise punk or an ex-con who palms, or otherwise conceals, the sharp and you won't know it until they are shoving the shiv in your kidney area.
I wasn't going to link this stuff...but this is a very serious subject. Keep that LCP fully loaded there Jason. The odds of you ever having to use it are very slim...but if you ever need it....
And I'm not a Mossad that uses a sidearm as a secondary weapon...and I don't carry a highly trained Israeli commando, that has been trained to rack the slide on the draw, with me either.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/183
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ammunition-and-empty-chambers/
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...chamber-empty-israeli-carry-re-revisited.html
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/empty-chamber-carry/
I have pocket carried guns for the past 26 years. All types and brands, SA and DA, and I have always carried it with a round ready to fire. If you pocket carry train yourself to never put anything into that pocket other than the gun and holster and your hand. And lastly remember the ONLY safety is between your ears! Don't touch the trigger or even put your finger in the guard until you have identified the target, aligned the sights and are ready to shoot.
NEVER ever allow the finger to go to the trigger till its time to fire! And NEVER ever violate these two rules and no accident can or will happen. If you can't do this perfectly every single day in every situation, then for goodness sakes don't carry a gun at all.
Responsible carry is your job! And there can be NO mistakes! Your life and the lives of others depend on your ability to practice PERFECT gun safety ALWAYS and in every situation!
A gun without a round in the chamber is about the most useless piece of equipment ever!
If the weapon is needed, you will not have time to be racking the slide before shooting. But the bad guy will certainly consider you a friend since you will be giving him a vast advantage in a gun fight.
NEVER ever allow the finger to go to the trigger till its time to fire! And NEVER ever violate these two rules and no accident can or will happen. If you can't do this perfectly every single day in every situation, then for goodness sakes don't carry a gun at all.
Responsible carry is your job! And there can be NO mistakes! Your life and the lives of others depend on your ability to practice PERFECT gun safety ALWAYS and in every situation!
A gun without a round in the chamber is about the most useless piece of equipment ever!
If the weapon is needed, you will not have time to be racking the slide before shooting. But the bad guy will certainly consider you a friend since you will be giving him a vast advantage in a gun fight.
You beat me to the 21 foot rule!Yup, Dan...the 21 foot rule. And that applies to a holstered weapon with one up the pipe...or even a revolver.
And that just applies to someone you can see charging you and you know has a knife. What is even more dangerous is a street wise punk or an ex-con who palms, or otherwise conceals, the sharp and you won't know it until they are shoving the shiv in your kidney area.
I wasn't going to link this stuff...but this is a very serious subject. Keep that LCP fully loaded there Jason. The odds of you ever having to use it are very slim...but if you ever need it....
And I'm not a Mossad that uses a sidearm as a secondary weapon...and I don't carry a highly trained Israeli commando, that has been trained to rack the slide on the draw, with me either.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/183
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ammunition-and-empty-chambers/
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...chamber-empty-israeli-carry-re-revisited.html
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/empty-chamber-carry/
When people consider carrying without a round in the chamber, consider this:
You don't pull your car out onto the road and stop to put the tires on do you?
In the mythbusters video you could see just how much time was wasted trying to rack the slide.
The last video Mike linked, demonstrates exactly the things I was going to type.
And to add to that video:
In the real world, you aren't going to be at 10 yards in a starting position waiting on a buzzer. Some one is going to come out from somewhere you weren't expecting them to be.
You will most likely get hit, cut, punched, bit, stabbed, kicked, shot, or any other manner of assault before you have the chance to draw your own protection.
The reality of you being able to actually stand there and use two hands to rack a round and come to a nice shooting position just isn't there in about 98% of assaults that you would need your firearm. The quicker and simpler you can deploy it, the more likelihood you have of surviving.
I have competed for 16 years with my DA/SA HK. I shoot at an expert to master class level. When I compete, it is hammer back, safety on.
When I carry, it is hammer down safety OFF.
Why?
Even at my level of training, there is still that rare occasion that I miss the safety. On those occasions, it costs me one to two seconds of time on my SCORE. In real life, those one to two seconds could be a knife in my throat or a bear biting my face.
Violent examples? Maybe, but think of the reason you are carrying. I hope that no one in this thread NEVER needs to draw theirs for anything other than fun at a range, but you also need to remember your tools need to be ready when you need them.
simon1
Self Ignored by Vista
You beat me to the 21 foot rule!
Excellent post sfeile...even though I stole your thunder.
You seem to grasp the concept very well. Are you a current of former LEO?I would be remiss if I didn't comment on turtle's EXCELLENT observation. Although today's semi-autos have so many safeties in them that for a modern DA semi-auto you'll be just fine.
It all depends on the design and construction of the weapon.
When I carried a baby Browning I would never chamber a round unless I were intending on discharging the weapon (i.e. at the range) as it is a sear firing pin gun. I've see too many sears slip and the firing pin slam into the primer causing the weapon to discharge.
For the last decade or so, I've carried a Seecamp which is a double action only hammer weapon. It is so safe to carry a round chambered that it would be foolish not to carry it charged.
Be safe. Know your weapon before you make the choice.
Simple Baby Browning
Seecamp Patent for safety.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US4428138.pdf
The only semi-auto I carry without a round in the chamber is an early '20s manufactured SA Ortgies, even though it is of excellent quality and has a grip safety. I just carry that for grins sometimes...when I'm not "carrying a gun." And I'm fully aware of the handicap it puts me under.
The firing pin has two little "legs" on it, but only one of them contacts the sear.
I have "heard" some reports of the little leg breaking while it was cocked and the firing pin hitting the primer of the chambered round...it goes full auto until the magazine runs out of ammo.
I've never had a problem with it but I still only carry it empty chamber...which is not much at all.
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I have "heard" some reports of the little leg breaking while it was cocked and the firing pin hitting the primer of the chambered round...it goes full auto until the magazine runs out of ammo.
Sounds like the Vis 35 Radom I put together wrong and it went full auto on me. NOT good.
Excellent post sfeile...even though I stole your thunder.
Thank you Mike, and you can have the thunder.
(I got stuck in the youtube vortex and wasn't quick enough.
)I am not LE, although I have helped train a few. I got into pistols about 18 years ago, and 16 years ago I met a 20 year veteran S.E.A.L.
Needless to say, he was able to teach me a few things. I went to a local IDPA match and took 3rd at my first ever shooting event and was hooked. From there I went on to become a certified RO and an instructor, as well as organizing and running my own shoots at my local club.
I've always aspired to be the best I can at whatever I do, so I pushed myself to learn all I could and incorporate it into my own training. Being a bit of a cynical realist helps to separate a lot of the gimmic from the practical also. I've also studied some self defense, so it was only natural to apply some of the theories as well.
I've always done "dangerous" jobs, I was an ironworker for 15 years, climbed and cut down trees for a while, played with dynamite for a seismic drilling company, and a few other things along those lines. And my hobbies include caving and rock climbing, and I was a bouncer in my spare time for a while. (And at 5'8" and 155lbs, usually the smallest guy in the place.
) In any of those careers or hobbies you can't be two steps behind, you have to think to stay alive. In the back of your head you always have to have a plan for the worst case scenario no matter how calm or correct it seems at the moment. That has transferred into my firearms training and teaching.
But, my brother-in-law is a federal officer in DC and I did stay at a holiday inn express once.
Nope.... in my 40 years on this planet I have only had to fire a weapon "X" amount of times and none of those have been in this country. I carry almost everyday and prefer to keep my weapon safe at all times.
Yes but I carry with a Browning 1911, which is impossible to fire unless you are holding it in your hand with the safety off. The 1911 is the only handgun which I would carry with a round in the chamber for that very reason. It has a dual safety, so unless you are holding it in your hand and have the safety off, it cant fire.
Consider: Police officers who carry a firearm daily and for extended periods of time. Of ANYONE they will be in a situation where a firearm must be drawn and used quickly; they must also be able to do so in an extremely safe fashion.
So what pistol does the overwhelming number of police departments use?
Last I heard it was a Glock. No "safety" per se and I guarantee beyond most reasonable doubt they all have a round chambered at all times.
Back in the day we carried the Beretta 92F (M9). There was ALWAYS a round in the chamber and the "safety" was NEVER engaged. It was used only as a decocking device. In fact, years later we went to the 92G which had a spring loaded decocker (similar to the Sig Sauer P226) which ensured the "safety" remained off.
Now...if there is any sort of testimonial as to what is the optimum fashion of how to carry an auto pistol, I humbly suggest that if it's good enough for the police, it should be good enough for you.
If in fact you are carrying a firearm that you do not believe can be carried safely with a chambered round...perhaps you should reconsider your choice of firearm.
So what pistol does the overwhelming number of police departments use?
Last I heard it was a Glock. No "safety" per se and I guarantee beyond most reasonable doubt they all have a round chambered at all times.
Back in the day we carried the Beretta 92F (M9). There was ALWAYS a round in the chamber and the "safety" was NEVER engaged. It was used only as a decocking device. In fact, years later we went to the 92G which had a spring loaded decocker (similar to the Sig Sauer P226) which ensured the "safety" remained off.
Now...if there is any sort of testimonial as to what is the optimum fashion of how to carry an auto pistol, I humbly suggest that if it's good enough for the police, it should be good enough for you.
If in fact you are carrying a firearm that you do not believe can be carried safely with a chambered round...perhaps you should reconsider your choice of firearm.
I do not have a CCP. I do not own any firearms, and I probably never will.
But the answer to this question seems like a no-brainer. Carry it loaded.
The time it takes you to put in a bullet could mean the difference between life and death.
I can only think of one single person that carried an unloaded weapon ... and that was Barney Fife.
But the answer to this question seems like a no-brainer. Carry it loaded.
The time it takes you to put in a bullet could mean the difference between life and death.
I can only think of one single person that carried an unloaded weapon ... and that was Barney Fife.
As a relative beginner who is (should be... shall issue state) about to get his concealed permit, this discussion interests me. I understand the argument for keeping a round in the pipe, and it makes sense. But my question is this --- if carrying with an unchambered round is so bad, why is "Israeli Carry" (aka Condition 3) so popular in other parts of the world?
I'll take a guess here. Those instances you refer to in other countries are almost certainly military, as I'm not aware of any other countries that even allow civilian carry. The military situation is different, as it's not about crime. In the case of war fighting, one generally is not suddenly surprised by the enemy (although that obviously happens). If one is in that situation (say in the heat of close quarters combat), and even in a position to use a handgun (very rare) they'd have a round chambered. Outside of that kind of fighting, and just milling around with your unit on patrol or even crawling around (with your main battle weapon, a rifle, at the ready) you might keep your sidearm unloaded for safety. Myself, I still wouldn't do it..but I guess that's just the way some roll. Again, just a total guess. US soldiers I believe were told to do the same with their 1911's back in the day, I presume because of the risk of AD on dropping the gun prior to the series 80 changes. Again though, the handgun wouldn't be the primary battle weapon, so would have been brought into readiness only before engaging in active close combat.
Great post Acme.
Great, great post dpm802. Much respect for your position. And lol'd @ Barney Fife. True, but funny.
