New stone not doing so well

Hi
I'm new to this hobby never actually made a shave ready edge but I'm working towards that.
I just bought a Norton 4000/8000 stone as a starter. The 4000 side made the bevel pretty fast, I thought to fast. Although I have no experience with this, I'm pretty sure my 1200 grit sand paper is finer to the touch anyhow.
I flipped it over and started working the 8000 side, which really doesn't feel that fine to me but it is shining up the bevel pretty shiny I guess that good.
As I work I check under magnification and find little tiny dents or chips in the apex of the bevel. I'll go ahead and hone them out only to find more in a different spot.
I am certain the 8000 grit is putting them in, just not sure if it's me or the stone that's the problem.
Does this stone need to be treated before use in some way ?
Could I use oil on this stone or would that not help ?

No exaggeration I have removed 1/8 of an inch from this blade just fooling around with it and it's not much sharper than an old kitchen knife.
Thanks for any advice, Tom

How long did you soak the stone?


Did you lap it first?

As stated did you soak the stone, water needs to not soak in for it to be ready, these are not what I would call "Splash and Go"

I put in water for 10 minutes before use as per instructions.
Lap it ?? Didn't know I had to and have no idea how.
Thanks Tom

Not sure what you know. We all start knowing next to nothing. Have you watched any videos? Are you honing with the razor flat on the stone, spine and edge touching at all times except the flip, which is done lifting the edge and not the spine? White is 4k and gold is 8k?

Must lap the stones for sure. I have heard that Norton's need a good bit of the surface removed, usually, but I haven't had Norton water stones.

Yeah I believe I'm honing properly. Watched a bunch of u tube.
Just watched a few on lapping, I guess that's up next.
Thanks, Tom

Good to hear. Hope the lapping does it. Remember that once the bevel is set, you don't want to use much pressure. I notice the stone sort of grabbing and grinding off the stria from the previous stone, and then the feel gets smoother. If you press too hard, the edge will flex up off the stone and you'll just grind away behind the edge. It's best to have just enough pressure that you feel the edge on the stone, sort of like you're lightly polishing the stone with it. With a light touch, eventually you'll feel all kinds of things happening on the edge and the spine.

I strongly recommend not using it on a bench, too; hold the stone in one hand and the razor in the other. This will help with avoiding too much pressure, which is a likely cause of your chipping.

You should really strive for almost no pressure, just enough to keep the blade flat. You need *some* pressure or no metal will be removed, but people err on the side of too much while learning.

So, strive to apply almost none; it will still probably be too much but you'll get a feel for it faster.

When I started I used way to much pressure and the razors I used at the time showed heavy spine wear, I have since that time learned alot and still learn everyday, get a few Gold Dollars or ZY razors to practice on also note a 1K is something I use very little anymore unless the blade has issues other than needing a good bevel, I am capable of doing it with a 4K Shapton GS stone, yes it does take longer than the 1K but wear on the spine is greatly reduced, if I am having a good day I can reset a bevel on a 4K and then use a JNAT with a DN slurry and be done after stropping and get a DFS, honing takes time so be patient and enjoy the ride and ask questions, I ask a ton of them and still do and in the end what works for me may not work for you.

If you were honing properly, you'd be shaving....

Need pix of the blade.
Stones have to be flattened or you'll never get anywhere.
Chipping can be from a lot of things - not enough info on the table to speculate. Excessive pressure is likely culprit, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing to be concerned with.
For all we know, the steel could be heavily micropitted.
You'll need what some call 'medium' pressure to set the bevel. It'll be slow going on a 4k Norton. By medium - think about how you have to press on a #2 pencil eraser to wipe out a word or whatever on loose leaf paper.

Honing on a bench top is fine - thousands have learned that way. I did. I personally wouldn't want to set bevels honing hand-held. But that's just me. There's no right or wrong way and neither method is inherently flawed, better or a solution to problems.

Pressure for setting bevels, to start - try to emulate the force when using an eraser on a #2 pencil. Start there. Watch the blade, make sure you're not flexing the steel.
You'll have to have the bevel set 100% before you move to the 8k. No bevel means no edge. The bevel is the edge and if it ain't set then there's no point in moving to a higher grit stone.
Nortons can need a real good lapping to get rid of what feels like the stone is dry....

I have the 4k/8k Norton and they work fine if they are prepped properly. Soak for at least 10-15 minutes before using. You definitely need to lap each side of the stone. Lots of info on how to do that using a DMT-325 Diamond plate. Marking the stone with a pencil and lapping until all the marks are gone. Sometimes the 4K side is still rough and you will need to keep lapping until really smooth. Sometimes you will have to take off 1/8" or so to get there. They work. That is why they sell so many of them!


Mike

Don't use oil on a Norton water-stone. Use oil on a Norton oil-stone.

Gamma said:

Honing on a bench top is fine - thousands have learned that way. I did. I personally wouldn't want to set bevels honing hand-held. But that's just me. There's no right or wrong way and neither method is inherently flawed, better or a solution to problems.

Click to expand...

I'd originally thought so too, but it turned out (for me, not for everyone) that things were much more intuitive, particularly around pressure, honing hand-held. Including (maybe especially) setting the bevel. For me, there's no comparison and the "right" way is clear.

As you say, mileage varies here for sure and there's no absolute right or wrong way, just what works for an individual.

Thanks I guess I haven't worked it out yet..
It seems if I rinse off the stone real well the blade will just ride down the stone real smooth.
After about 10 strokes it seems to hang up in all different spots, like it's tripping over very small grit.
Then I re wash the stone and repeat, another 10. I obviously don't know much but this doesn't seem right. I'm thinking whatever is causing these hangup my be causing my micro chips .
Question : how do I know when the bevel is set and time to move on ?
I am making the assumption of a symmetrical apex with absolutely no chips or dings, then move up.
Thanks for the replys, Tom

For me a set bevel should pop let hair easily with minimal pressure against the skin. If your new bevel has trouble cutting hair it will never shave comfortably no matter how high a finishing stone you have.

the Norton needs to be lapped flat and smooth before you can use it for razors.
I soak mine for 20 minutes while I set a bevel on a 1000 grit chosera.

The Norton 4/8K is my favorite hone. I actually shave off the 8K every day. I like it a lot. It doesn't make sense that the hone is smooth and then all of a sudden the blade hangs up. Are you using one hand or two to move the razor on the stone? Are you sure the razor is not tilting on the stone?

I think we need to see this blade. A norton will give a good edge, but no stone can give a good edge on poor quality steel. Are you certain you are honing a blade that is capable of taking a good edge?

That has been my recent thinking, this blade might be junk !!
I have another razor that is nicer but I really didn't want to learn on it, I kind of wanted to know what's going on before I mess that one up.
The one I'm trying to hone has had a lot of use, the spine is severely worn and therfore the bevel is pretty large.
I honed it pretty well last night with the 8000 side and it won't cut the hair on my arm.

The stone seems much better the more I use it. The blade no longer hangs up and the stone feels much smoother the more I use it.
Thanks, Tom

The large spine wear is also a possible suspect. Even great steel has a honing angle that it will not go below without losing its ability to take an edge. Shaving edge angles fall into a range of course, but nearly all fall somewhere between 12 and 25 degrees with the vast majority being in the teens. If the spine has been worn to the point that the angle is extremely shallow it may not be able to take that edge. I would advise getting a cheap razor, of known quality to practice on.

Don't come off your lowest grit stone until you are shaving arm hair. That is my bevel test. I shave off my 1k, then move up. So if you aren't shaving sharp at 4k, keep going.