Air Rifles for Small Game-177 vs .22

Commander Quan said:

I know absolutely nothing about air rifles. Would a .22 pellet be effective for a possum or groundhog at <25 yards?

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As said, it will depend somewhat on the rifle, but I have in the past killed several whistle pigs at that range with a medium powered spring-air .22. It also depends on shot placement, a larger one is pretty tough to kill quickly except with a headshot. A higher powered PCP .22 can provide twice the power of my old springer.

Groundhogs are tough. I would say a .22 lr is about the lowest power gun that is practical.

That's what I thought.

If you're only going to be shooting at 25 yds, You can make accurate, lethal hits with .177 out to 40 yards on Groundhog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deviB-v3yqg

I really like how this guy uses his scope reticle. He has his scope hitting dead on at 30 yards and uses the space between the cross hair and first mil dot to perfectly box in the ear for sighting in with a 5mph wind speed.

Places the pellet right below the ear with no wind. if the wind picks up right after the shot and drifts right, he still hits the brain between the ear and eye. If the wind picks up and drifts the pellet left, the pellet still places on the upper neck and spine.

Very nice hunting. I've seen several of his videos, he keeps a Marauder .22 with him when he wants to make 50-80 yd shots.

Here is a 100 yd shot on Groundhog using .22.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEyMLIhahss

Ok, I've been watching this thread for a while. And I'm getting pretty interested. I have a farm in NC, and we have varmints.

I have several rim fire .22s, several .30 cal regular rifles, and a couple of .50 cal BP rifles. But if you start dragging those out things shooting from the back yard the neighbors can get a little testy. It is a rural neighborhood, but a stray .22 rim fire could easily injury a neighbor a quarter mile away.

I do happen to have an old Crossman my dad used with BBs to run off cats and dogs he didn't own. But that thing is useless to do much more than sting.

As one who isn't ever going to crawl around in a blind looking for wild hogs, but does want some knockdown power if required, is the Gamo .177 a pretty reasonable choice? Would .22 be better? Is there another brand that's more appropriate?

Are the pellets in the videos pretty much standard? I could pick them up at pretty much any outfitter store, or maybe even Wally World?

Well...as you can see from all the previous posts, my luck with a .177 had been minimal when used to deal with squirrels (pretty good sized squirrels, but still just squirrels nonetheless). Things got better with the augmentation of a PCP .22 but even still, with a well-placed shot, things sometimes required follow-up.

The Hatsan .25 arrived a few days ago and has yet to be put to the test; scope is not yet zeroed, but the open sights are ready to go. I'm thinking this is going to be the the best choice for larger targets.

I have not had the necessity to deal with problem birds (like pigeons, crows, grackles, etc.). The plethora of songbirds we have here are more than welcome and always quite well fed. It was actually after we set up bird feeders that the squirrels became more aggressive. Go figure. I'm going to think a .177 would be fine with pest birds.

BB rifles I don't think would be much good for anything other than paper or empty cans.

mrb7 said:

Ok, I've been watching this thread for a while. And I'm getting pretty interested. I have a farm in NC, and we have varmints.

I have several rim fire .22s, several .30 cal regular rifles, and a couple of .50 cal BP rifles. But if you start dragging those out things shooting from the back yard the neighbors can get a little testy. It is a rural neighborhood, but a stray .22 rim fire could easily injury a neighbor a quarter mile away.

I do happen to have an old Crossman my dad used with BBs to run off cats and dogs he didn't own. But that thing is useless to do much more than sting.

As one who isn't ever going to crawl around in a blind looking for wild hogs, but does want some knockdown power if required, is the Gamo .177 a pretty reasonable choice? Would .22 be better? Is there another brand that's more appropriate?

Are the pellets in the videos pretty much standard? I could pick them up at pretty much any outfitter store, or maybe even Wally World?

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A .20 or a .22 would give you much more power. I only have experience with a few brands, the Benjamin pneumatic guns, and a RWS springer.

I think the Benjamin 392 would be a good choice at approx $180.

The RWS 54 is very accurate, but at around $550 it is a bit much if you're only going to use it on pests. If you enjoy shooting a accurate rifle and aren't afraid of the price tag, I can recommend the 54. Ofc that much gun is best used with a scope, so add another $150-$200.

I have limited experience with "springer" airguns, but be forewarned that they evidently need to be held in a rather loose manner, using the "artillery" hold. I got lucky with my RWS 54, since it is mounted on rails, and evidently isn't as sensitive as other springers as far as how it is held. I'm able to hold my 54 like you would hold any normal firearm. Just a little info FWI

mrb7 said:

Ok, I've been watching this thread for a while. And I'm getting pretty interested. I have a farm in NC, and we have varmints.

I have several rim fire .22s, several .30 cal regular rifles, and a couple of .50 cal BP rifles. But if you start dragging those out things shooting from the back yard the neighbors can get a little testy. It is a rural neighborhood, but a stray .22 rim fire could easily injury a neighbor a quarter mile away.

I do happen to have an old Crossman my dad used with BBs to run off cats and dogs he didn't own. But that thing is useless to do much more than sting.

As one who isn't ever going to crawl around in a blind looking for wild hogs, but does want some knockdown power if required, is the Gamo .177 a pretty reasonable choice? Would .22 be better? Is there another brand that's more appropriate?

Are the pellets in the videos pretty much standard? I could pick them up at pretty much any outfitter store, or maybe even Wally World?

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Modern Gamo's are not well regarded for accuracy or quality. They are low cost so what is better depends on how much you want to spend.

Most often a .177 will be faster and flatter (for accuracy it's best to stay subsonic) and a .22 will hit harder.

IMO a Benjamin 392 is ideal for low cost garden defense. Unlike a springer you can keep it "ready" to shoot, and it requires a lot less finesses to shoot accurately. If $ is not an object I'd say a .25 Kalibrgun Cricket. I own a Cricket in .22 and it is an amazing rifle. However, the gun and everything you need to shoot it is more than 10x the cost of a 392.

As far as ammo goes; it's kind of a try and see. JSB ammo is typically a safe bet, but I need to get mine online. Crosman ammo is a fair bit cheaper and it is probably good 'nuff for hunting and plinking. Crosman in a cardboard box is more expensive than the tins, but a lot more consistent in quality.

Kzoorichie said:

Modern Gamo's are not well regarded for accuracy or quality. They are low cost so what is better depends on how much you want to spend.

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I whole heartedly, disagree. Respectfully of course. Have you owned a modern Gamo? My .177 Bone Collector, is powerful 1300 FPS and very accurate for hunting. All air rifles are inherently more accurate than most regular firearms. I am punching four leaf clovers at 25 yards. I can keep all my shots at 50 yards in a 3 inch circle off hand and easily within 2 inches from a supported rest.

Modern Gamo's are not well regarded? Are you speaking from personal experience? Because, I can show you plenty of famous hunters on youtube who will say different. So I guess it's "who's crowd" you hang around for that kind of information. Just look at our sub forum.

I could sit here and go on and on about all the con's of why I don't like Sig Sauer and love Glocks. And get some people to agree with me.But there would be just as many people, saying I'm crazy and would respond with all the Pro's of Sig's and why they hate Glocks.

Cheap? My Gamo cost me $200.00 and I got it on a sale. You must be rich? Not everyone wants a competition rifle, Kzoorichie. But my Gamo is a quality rifle and there is a wonderful selection of Gamo pellets for hunting. My Gamo has a gas filled piston system. It can stay loaded indefinitely unlike a springer, and it's fast, powerful and very accurate for my hunting needs.

Gamo's cannot compare or compete with a modern PCP rifle, but for someone like me or mrb7, who has land and needs to keep the varmints from multiplying and taking over? Gamo is exactly what the doctor ordered. The price, power and accuracy, are just right.

3 summers ago, my 10 acres of land along with my neighbors land was over run with Skunks. Spending a few hours once a week over 3 summers, I took over 60 skunks off my land with that Gamo. All but one, were one shot, humanitarian kills.

It seems I struck a nerve, but we'll need to disagree on this one. Yes, I do own a Gamo.

One thing I have seen plenty of is guys coming out to the range saying their Gamo shoots 1.2 k, 1.4 k etc and not being able to hit 2" targets at 25 yards. We then loan them a gun and they are grinning from ear to ear. The chip on my shoulder is guys buy dept store guns and they gather dust in a closet because they can't find the target.

Gamo has favored marketing (as evident by promoting hunting hogs via YouTube with .177 and boasting inherently inaccurate speeds) over good design. I'd also say that based on the fact that (unlike say a 392 or Diana) Gamo replacement parts are far from readily available Gamo has little interest in marketing a gun that has a lifespan that would require replacement parts.

I'm a man of modest means, and did not call anyone cheap. In fact you'll note I advised a lower cost rifle than your Gamo. However, airgunning is my main recreational interest and as such I do won some nice airguns.

All air rifles are not more accurate than firearms. Air rifles have the potential to be more accurate, but the facts are that your gonna spend more on a decent quality airgun than a fire arm. There is a lot more in designing and manufacturing qairguns, and a way less favorable economy of scale. Of course the return is realized when you can shoot for little cost and easily find ammo.

I have a big interest and am active in growing the sport of airgunning. I've spent countless hours building this range http://pneuzoo.weebly.com/about.html (I'm the big ugly guy in the top right in the bank of photos). I help run our airgun clinics and youth program. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I have spent considerable effort on helping folks choose airguns.

I'm glad your Gamo is working out for you, and I do like my Gamo as well. However, there are superior choices.

Kzoorichie said:

It seems I struck a nerve,

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Not at all my friend. I enjoy reading all your posts.

Kzoorichie said:

but we'll need to disagree on this one.

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This is what makes this forum great imo.

Kzoorichie said:

One thing I have seen plenty of is guys coming out to the range saying their Gamo shoots 1.2 k, 1.4 k etc and not being able to hit 2" targets at 25 yards. We then loan them a gun and they are grinning from ear to ear. The chip on my shoulder is guys buy dept store guns and they gather dust in a closet because they can't find the target.

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I'm sure you have, so either their Gamo can shoot 1.2 @ 25yds as their saying, but they just can't as shooters? Or I must be an exceptional shot. I haven't ever even tried a 1.2 kilometer shot with a rifle, but I know for a fact I can easily group 5 shots at 2" from a rest at 25 yds.

Maybe it's the optics.

Kzoorichie said:

Gamo has favored marketing (as evident by promoting hunting hogs via YouTube with .177 and boasting inherently inaccurate speeds) over good design.

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All air rifle manufacturers have favored marketing.

Kzoorichie said:

I'd also say that based on the fact that (unlike say a 392 or Diana) Gamo replacement parts are far from readily available Gamo has little interest in marketing a gun that has a lifespan that would require replacement parts.

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I would think, most break barrel design brands, have very little interest in the lifespan of their rifles. While Gamo pricing reflects a lower budget air rifle, it is a fine quality rifle for it's targeted audience. Air rifle beginner entry and varmint hunters, who want/need to be in the field hunting right now, but brought enough rifle to get the job done.

Kzoorichie said:

I'm a man of modest means, and did not call anyone cheap. In fact you'll note I advised a lower cost rifle than your Gamo. However, airgunning is my main recreational interest and as such I do own some nice airguns.

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From what I read, you only said Gamo was cheap. Never thought you called anyone cheap. But I still respectfully, disagree with you.

Kzoorichie said:

All air rifles are not more accurate than firearms.

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Making adjustments for velocities and recoil, I am quite more capable of tighter groups with an airgun than I am with say, a Ruger 10/22. The surgical precision of an air rifle, again, considering it's velocities and minimum capabilities, I believe are pretty impressive.

Kzoorichie said:

I have a big interest and am active in growing the sport of airgunning. I've spent countless hours building this range http://pneuzoo.weebly.com/about.html (I'm the big ugly guy in the top right in the bank of photos). I help run our airgun clinics and youth program. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I have spent considerable effort on helping folks choose airguns.

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Very nice range. I seen that link in your other thread, posting my interest. I know you are heavily involved with competitive airgunning.

However, the OP seemed to be asking about possibly, an introductory air rifle for hunting. His suggestion of interest and points he made of having land with critters he needed to possibly dispose of, reminded me of my rural land and pest problems and why I purchased my Gamo.

My Gamo, has more than achieved the goals I set out for it. And has impressed me with it's quality, power, accuracy and price point, for the specific goal that I intended it for. I completely understand you have much more experience with airgunning and advising others who wish to possibly have in depth interest in the sport. I have much respect for you and that prospect.

But I think considering only what the OP had in mind, the Gamo is a sufficient and qualified candidate. And that's all I have disagreed with you about. In fact, if/when I decide to upgrade to a PCP, I hope you would be available and endulge me with advice and your knowledge and experience.

I took this big guy, a few nights back, after a heavy rain. Skunks really like looking for grubs after a rain, because it brings them to the surface. Took him right around 30 yards, placing the 9.6 grain ballistic tip, Gamo 'Lethal' in his right eye.

View attachment 654493

I can KILL woodchucks with my .177 Marauder at 25 yards. Its tuned to 960fps (actual) with 7.9gr, giving 16fpe.

It takes a steady hold and a well timed shot, but they will go down.

I'd suggest anyone looking into hunting/pest elimination with a pellet gun to do some research into the proper caliber, you'll find that most advise using a .22 or .20 cal. The .25 is a bit much for most airguns, you'll need a PCP to do the .25 cal justice. And while the .177 is flat shooting, it doesn't have a lot of mass, so you'll need very good shot placement, not leaving much room for error. And as mentioned the .22 will carry much more power at subsonic speeds than the .177 will, and pellets are most accurate at subsonic speeds.

valkabit said:

I'd suggest anyone looking into hunting/pest elimination with a pellet gun to do some research into the proper caliber, you'll find that most advise using a .22 or .20 cal. The .25 is a bit much for most airguns, you'll need a PCP to do the .25 cal justice. And while the .177 is flat shooting, it doesn't have a lot of mass, so you'll need very good shot placement, not leaving much room for error. And as mentioned the .22 will carry much more power at subsonic speeds than the .177 will, and pellets are most accurate at subsonic speeds.

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While the .20 cal isn't a popular known pellet caliber, I can agree with most of this post. .25 is best from an PCP. And accuracy can be easier found from subsonic velocities. And if you are not looking to crack the sound barrier, .22's knockdown would be preferred.

However, times are changing, and companies are engineering .177 rifles and pellets, that are capable of speed, power and accuracy. There is just something exciting, when I place an accurate .177 at 40 yards, moving at 1400 fps, and can see the shock wave from the pellet thru my scope and the devastating impact, when it hits the little critter.

But I would definitely hunt with a .22. I still would like to see it moving at 900 fps, but that's just me. Your miles may vary.

nymtber said:

I can KILL woodchucks with my .177 Marauder at 25 yards. Its tuned to 960fps (actual) with 7.9gr, giving 16fpe.

It takes a steady hold and a well timed shot, but they will go down.

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.177 pellet is irresponsible. Spend 5 minutes on Google and you will find most say a .22lr is not enough gun. It's not uncommon for a .22 to need an extra shot or two. Most recommend center fire rifles, yes they are at a greater range, but woodchucks are tough, thick skin, skull, fat, and fur.

The first non-safety rule is bring enough gun.

Kzoorichie said:

.177 pellet is irresponsible. Spend 5 minutes on Google and you will find most say a .22lr is not enough gun. It's not uncommon for a .22 to need an extra shot or two. Most recommend center fire rifles, yes they are at a greater range, but woodchucks are tough, thick skin, skull, fat, and fur.

The first non-safety rule is bring enough gun.

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It's all about the accuracy of the rifle and the confidence in your shooting skills. Groundhogs are tough little boogers. If a hunter has done his homework, on what he wants to kill, and how he wants to kill it, he looks for and forward to, finding, what I call the sweet spot.

Can the .177 be enough gun? First, you would need 25-30 ft lbs of energy. A .177 Crosman Hollowpoint at 1200 fps gives 32 ft. lbs of energy. Second, range would need to be 20-25 yards maximum for effectiveness. Third, at that range, placing a well timed and accurate brain shot at the base of the lower ear of a Groundhog will kill it humanely. This isn't hard to do @ 25 yards. Groundhogs are not squirrels. The big ones are slower and much more predictable than a jittery and jumpy squirrel. If you miss the brain with a .177, you are correct, it won't be a humane kill.

But guess what? If you miss the brain with a .22, it won't be a humane kill either, and the .177 shoots flatter than the .22. Finding this trifecta called the sweet spot, is why hunters call it hunting, instead of calling it rocket science...

OkieStubble said:

It's all about the accuracy of the rifle and the confidence in your shooting skills. Groundhogs are tough little boogers. If a hunter has done his homework, on what he wants to kill, and how he wants to kill it, he looks for and forward to, finding, what I call the sweet spot.

Can the .177 be enough gun? First, you would need 25-30 ft lbs of energy. A .177 Crosman Hollowpoint at 1200 fps gives 32 ft. lbs of energy. Second, range would need to be 20-25 yards maximum for effectiveness. Third, at that range, placing a well timed and accurate brain shot at the base of the lower ear of a Groundhog will kill it humanely. This isn't hard to do @ 25 yards. Groundhogs are not squirrels. The big ones are slower and much more predictable than a jittery and jumpy squirrel. If you miss the brain with a .177, you are correct, it won't be a humane kill.

But guess what? If you miss the brain with a .22, it won't be a humane kill either, and the .177 shoots flatter than the .22. Finding this trifecta called the sweet spot, is why hunters call it hunting, instead of calling it rocket science...

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Isn't accuracy best at subsonic velocities? Kinda leaves the .177 at 1200 fps out of the accuracy sweet spot. And I'd say flatter trajectory is nice, but if the .22 is going subsonic, and your scope is dialed in for the distance, that is a pretty sweet combination.

valkabit said:

Isn't accuracy best at subsonic velocities? Kinda leaves the .177 at 1200 fps out of the accuracy sweet spot. And I'd say flatter trajectory is nice, but if the .22 is going subsonic, and your scope is dialed in for the distance, that is a pretty sweet combination.

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Yes, you are correct. Accuracy is best at subsonic speeds. And if one is choosing to do subsonic, a .22 with some size and weight is best. However, just because subsonic is best in the accuracy department, doesn't mean the .177 at hypersonic speeds is not accurate. I am not disagreeing about the .22 at subsonic speeds.

I am saying, the .177 is more than capable of 1/2" - 1" groups at 25 yds at hypersonic velocities. So if an experienced shooter and hunter stays in the perimeters of his sweet spot, he will be plenty capable of taking Woodchuck with his ..177. Their taking boar with it. Plenty of YouTube videos to prove it. Am I saying, some unskilled person should try it??

An unskilled person shouldn't try .22 at subsonic either.

OkieStubble said:

Yes, you are correct. Accuracy is best at subsonic speeds. And if one is choosing to do subsonic, a .22 with some size and weight is best. However, just because subsonic is best in the accuracy department, doesn't mean the .177 at hypersonic speeds is not accurate. I am not disagreeing about the .22 at subsonic speeds.

I am saying, the .177 is more than capable of 1/2" - 1" groups at 25 yds at hypersonic velocities. So if an experienced shooter and hunter stays in the perimeters of his sweet spot, he will be plenty capable of taking Woodchuck with his ..177. Their taking boar with it. Plenty of YouTube videos to prove it. Am I saying, some unskilled person should try it??

An unskilled person shouldn't try .22 at subsonic either.

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I never meant to imply that a unskilled shooter will become the "Great White Hunter" simply because he chose a .22 over a .177, I'm just saying that any person looking to choose a pellet gun for hunting or pest removal would be better served by a .22.
Not to say a .177 has no place, I'm just saying a .22 is a better choice in some instances.