Poor sport Patriot fans vs. Super Bowl winning Broncos

I don't know why it has to come down to discussions about Brady/Gronkowski vs Belichick for Patriot success. Let's take a great coach with multiple Super Bowl wins. Chuck Knoll and the Steeler. Does anyone argue Knoll was the reason they won the SB and the players didn't have anything to do with it-Steel curtain, Ham, Lambert, Harris etc. Would they have won as many without Knoll. They would have won some for sure. Maybe as many. Maybe all. Would they have won as many without Bradshaw? I think they might have. Bradshaw was a good player on a great team. A good argument can be made that another QB would have won as many SB with that team. You can pick others Montana/Walsh or Staubach/Landry etc.

They have won three games without Brady/Gronkowski in 2016. They won 11 games when Brady was injured and Cassel took over. They didn't make the playoffs that year. This is what they have won without Brady/Gronkowski. The trophy case is bare. Clearly Belichick as a head coach hasn't won anything without Brady. He hasn't won anything without Gronkowski when he joined the team. The Patriots lost to the Giants in the SB when he was a shell off himself, hobbled with an ankle injury.

Patriots played the Bronco's in the 2013 AFC Championship game. Gronkowski was injured and didn't play. Would the Patriots have won if Gronkowski had played? Who knows! I certainly would have liked our chances better with Gronkowski.

Scar is a good coach. He has done well with talent and when he has had olive loaf for talent he didn't serve Beef Wellington. The Patriots have had some bad teams over 30 years while he was there. Including the year they finished last and drafted Bledsoe as first pick in the draft.

This year they have talent and Scar is working to have a consistent group playing together. Last year for whatever reason under the previous coach they had a rotation. Part of it was design and part was due to injury. It didn't work. Scar was with the Patriots last year as a consultant. This year he is on the coaching staff.

Brady and Gronkowski are HOF players. Belichick is a HOF coach. They have been very successful. The combination of the three works well.

Belichick isn't faultless. His strategy down the end of last season has been universally criticized in New England. Fans weren't worshipping at the hoodies feet. He had a number of horrible game plans down the stretch (Eagles, Dolphins). If the AFC Championship game had been played in Gillette the outcome may have been different. The Patriots with Brady are 2-7 versus the Bronco's in Denver. The Bronco's with Brady at Gillette are 5-2. Would you have liked your chances playing in Gillette?

I don't see any difference than the Bronco fans "hero worship" of Elway either as player or GM. We hold Brady and Gronkowski in the same rarefied air as their coach. To each...his own.

If you are trying to say Patriot players aren't so great...they just respond to great coaching. That's a little foolish.

You expound that Kubiak is a great coach. Coaches up his QB to get the most out of them etc. What's the difference?

Secretly don't you wish Goodell would suspend you like he did Brady. Then you could be sunning in Italy. Gronkowski be damned. That's Brady's best TE....Gisele. What a life.

deoxy4 said:

... Let's take a great coach with multiple Super Bowl wins. ... Bradshaw was a good player on a great team. ... You can pick others ...

Click to expand...

You're getting the point now. Brady is a good QB with a great team/organization. Had he gone to, say, New Orleans, would we even be having this discussion. I'm thinking not.

deoxy4 said:

Belichick isn't faultless. His strategy down the end of last season has been universally criticized in New England. Fans weren't worshipping at the hoodies feet. He had a number of horrible game plans down the stretch (Eagles, Dolphins).

Click to expand...

Sometimes every team just gets beat. The matchups, motivation, momentum can just turn on you. Any given Sunday... Patriots fans are really spoiled whiners, :-D

deoxy4 said:

If the AFC Championship game had been played in Gillette the outcome may have been different. The Patriots with Brady are 2-7 versus the Bronco's in Denver. The Bronco's with Brady at Gillette are 5-2. Would you have liked your chances playing in Gillette?

Click to expand...

Oh I definitely was happy about the turn of events, playing in Denver vs. Gillette. Nothing is a lock, but it was a good thing for Denver.

deoxy4 said:

don't see any difference than the Bronco fans "hero worship" of Elway either as player or GM. We hold Brady and Gronkowski in the same rarefied air as their coach. To each...his own.

Click to expand...

As a player Elway played on a lot of teams with problems and was great fun to watch him try to pull it out. But I never hero worshipped him. As GM, he's really turned around some long standing issues so I have a lot of admiration, respect and trust in that although still don't think it's hero worship.

deoxy4 said:

You expound that Kubiak is a great coach. Coaches up his QB to get the most out of them etc. What's the difference?

Click to expand...

Yup, I remember last year being really happy Kubiak and Phillips were back while you were trashing them like you are prone to do. Maybe not as good as Belichick but at least thank goodness he's not McDaniels! Elway and Kubiak were competitive players and still want to compete & add what they can. Good stuff...

deoxy4 said:

Secretly don't you wish Goodell would suspend you like he did Brady. Then you could be sunning in Italy. Gronkowski be damned. That's Brady's best TE....Gisele. What a life.

Click to expand...

It's a hell of a deal, I agree. Especially since they restructured Brady's contract so he lost MUCH less money than if he'd been suspended earlier. But I think Brady would rather be playing, obviously a true competitor.

Maybe the hoody can hoodwink a team to trade the "good" QB Brady for a couple of #1 picks. Then he can trade the "good" TE Gronkowski for another #1 and a #2 pick. Then the Patriots can be competitive for another 15 years. Oh, the humanity!

Contract money seems to be very important to some players. Von Miller wanted to be the highest paid defensive player. Pay-a-ton never left a dime on the table other than the last year of his contract when he was throwing ducks. If a player is so driven that's fine.

Other players realize that they are making millions of dollars and more than they can ever spend and their children are going to lack for nothing. It is important to be in a situation that works for them. That may be the organization they play for, the area they live, associations they have made, etc. Wolfe signed a contract that most would perceive to be team friendly. He wanted to be in Denver. Brady has never been solely motivated by money. He gets paid plenty! He likes where he is. He wants to play on a competitive team and not a cellar dweller. He has restructured his contract to help the team remain competitive throughout his career. So he leaves a dime on the dollar from the maximum he could make elsewhere. He makes endorsement money being a figurehead on the franchise of a successful team. Evens out. Your perception of Brady's contract restructuring is disingenuous. You have the right to believe it if it suits you.

deoxy4 said:

Maybe the hoody can hoodwink a team to trade the "good" QB Brady for a couple of #1 picks. Then he can trade the "good" TE Gronkowski for another #1 and a #2 pick. Then the Patriots can be competitive for another 15 years. Oh, the humanity!

Click to expand...

That would follow the pattern. Not sure either is safe after this year although that seems sacrilegious, at least in Brady's case.

deoxy4 said:

Contract money seems to be very important to some players. Von Miller wanted to be the highest paid defensive player. Pay-a-ton never left a dime on the table other than the last year of his contract when he was throwing ducks. If a player is so driven that's fine.

Click to expand...

Von is special and he knows it. Player careers end all the time, it's a cold business. If you got the leverage...

deoxy4 said:

Other players realize that they are making millions of dollars and more than they can ever spend and their children are going to lack for nothing. It is important to be in a situation that works for them. That may be the organization they play for, the area they live, associations they have made, etc. Wolfe signed a contract that most would perceive to be team friendly. He wanted to be in Denver. Brady has never been solely motivated by money. He gets paid plenty! He likes where he is. He wants to play on a competitive team and not a cellar dweller. He has restructured his contract to help the team remain competitive throughout his career. So he leaves a dime on the dollar from the maximum he could make elsewhere. He makes endorsement money being a figurehead on the franchise of a successful team. Evens out. Your perception of Brady's contract restructuring is disingenuous. You have the right to believe it if it suits you.

Click to expand...

Not everybody has the maximum leverage that Von did. Many have to consider that they might be a fool to leave a system that fits you for a few extra bucks.

Denver stuck with Wolfe when he had weird illnesses and couldn't play. He's one of the stars in Denver now.

Danny and Malik cashed in but they've faded into the background and I hear little about then anymore. Danny is a great player and did well in the system. The pressure Malik could generate in the center is noticeably missed but the D-Line is still very good.

Brock got crazy money and he's "the man" in Houston. But Houston isn't looking to have a great year from what I've seen. He did give them sorely needed stability at the position and is unlikely to be benched so has the opportunity to grow which he will. He's a good guy really and will be fine. He might even be the hero off and on.

Brady stated earning a lot less than Manning being such a lower draft pick. But Brady earned FAR more than Manning some years. Overall Manning made a good chunk more but Brady made plenty and nobody use gonna pity him.

Brady knows he's in a good place in many ways. If he has to give up a little money to stay and be competitive, I have no doubt that he would.

Elway took a cut at the end of his playing career, so Denver could get a needed player. Elway really wanted to win those Superbowl at the end.

deoxy4 said:

Your perception of Brady's contract restructuring is disingenuous. You have the right to believe it if it suits you.

Click to expand...

Before this last atypical restructuring, Brady would've lost about 2.1 million with the four game suspension. Now he loses 0.1 million. Just how am I reading that wrong?

Brady restructured his contract as he has done many times throughout his career. Not atypical in any manner, with an extension thru 2019. If he restructured his contract to his advantage to his benefit I applaud it. His average salary is 20.5M/year on this contract. Restructuring with the extension saved him 1.8M. MUCH less money 8%.

When one looks at the money these gentlemen make over a career as of 2014 Pay-a-ton @ $229M and Brady @ $154. $1.8M looks a little inconsequential.

deoxy4 said:

Brady restructured his contract as he has done many times throughout his career. Not atypical in any manner, with an extension thru 2019. If he restructured his contract to his advantage to his benefit I applaud it. His average salary is 20.5M/year on this contract. Restructuring with the extension saved him 1.8M. MUCH less money 8%.

When one looks at the money these gentlemen make over a career as of 2014 Pay-a-ton @ $229M and Brady @ $154. $1.8M looks a little inconsequential.

Click to expand...

So I got the figures slightly wrong. They're even more favorable for Brady than I thought. Before he stood to lose $2.118 million. Now he loses $235,294.

The new contract reduced his base salary from $9 million in 2016 to $1 million. For an NFL player with 10 or more years of experience, the minimum salary is $985,000 per year. Brady nearly took the lowest yearly figure possible, while recouping much of the money with a $28 million, guaranteed signing bonus.

Suspended players lose a prorated amount of their base salary for each game missed. As Boston Globe's Ben Volin noted at the time of Brady's new deal, it will save him tons of money in case of a suspension.

Name a time when Brady or anyone else has renegotiated a contract this way. If you can't then it's atypical, that's what it means. It's obvious that it was done this way to lessen the financial blow of the suspension which they clearly thought was coming. But you're free to think what you want.

Those earnings figures you quoted are only through 2014. And Manning is retired now so Brady will close the gap a bit, depending on how long he plays. Manning was drafted #1 and two years earlier than Brady so started making more and making it earlier than the #199 pick Brady.

Brady has many times restructured his deals with the Patriots. He is pretty amenable to working thing out with the Patriots and deferring salary.

Brady went from a two year deal to a four year deal. Typically when players restructure their deals-money gets pushed out for additional years of contract and contracts are end loaded. You are correct $1M salary for 2016 and bonus, $1M salary for 2017 and bonus (Maybe he knows he is going to be suspended again.) $14M for 2018 and bonus, $14M for 2019 and bonus. Bonus money is pretty much $6-7M per year for all years of the 4 year deal. Wouldn't expect the 4year deal to be front loaded. Front loaded contracts are atypical.

Guess it is fine as far as the NFL is concerned. Sure accountants are involved in structuring deals for both players and teams involved.
Brady/NFL/Team happy.

Manning was reported to earn $665K (probably minimum salary at that time) in 2004 and then $35M in 2005. I don't know the particulars but if I were to guess it probably was structured this way to fit the cap.

$28 million signing bonus isn't front loaded? ;-)

Manning restructured last year, he took a $4 million cut which he could, and ultimately did, earn back by getting to and winning the Superbowl. That's betting on yourself.

I'm just going to throw this one in here for posterity.

View attachment 692470

I remember that one. Still funny :-(

Tom Brady isn't even the main breadwinner in his family. Gisele makes like double what he does. And she doesn't even sports! :-D

Manning was never known for incentivized restructuring deals. He did so once as you mention-when he was throwing ducks. Not a criticism, just the reality.

You shouldn't bring up Elway's or Davis's salaries because that's when those bad accountants did those nasty things in deferring salaries illegally that the Bronco's knew nothing about and the poor Broncos' were fined and lost draft picks by the NFL.

I really don't pay much attention to NFL salaries. I think they all are grossly over paid. But you have motivated me to look. OMG! Now I know why Brady is so hated by players, opposing fans, and sports agents across the league. I bet every GM throws the summary of Brady's contract on the table at the start of a salary negotiation with a QB. They must reply "That's Brady, let's get real!"

Brady is so under paid, it's almost unbelievable. What an advantage the Patriots have and really have had. To be able to have had such a great player at such a discount. It is almost criminal. No wonder so many other NFL fans hope and predict his demise. It really shows how much Brady loves football, the position he is in with Belichick, the team and Kraft. It really has opened my eyes.

Reason for the Patriots competitiveness for 15 years:
1. Brady's bargain contract.
2. Brady's play and Belichick's GM/Coaching.

I might be convinced that's it. Brady so selfless. What a legend. A saint. Gush!

As far as Brady not being the breadwinner in the family...I know...ain't it great! Not hard on the eyes to boot!

As they say in Boston. "Brady is ...wicked... pissah!" 3-0 without Brady and Sexy Rexy on deck. Belichick preparing a game plan as Sexy Rexy is preparing for his next job as a standup comedian at Giggles! Brady back in week 5. Maybe a 3 game lead in the AFC East after 4 games when the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills predicted this was their year. Goodell stick it!

GO SOX! Boston fans spoiled ... you bet!

deoxy4 said:

You shouldn't bring up Elway's or Davis's salaries because that's when those bad accountants did those nasty things in deferring salaries illegally that the Bronco's knew nothing about and the poor Broncos' were fined and lost draft picks by the NFL.

Click to expand...

I didn't, really. Talked about a cut Elway took and didn't mention T.D. at all. I know what you think about the Broncos accounting. And I also know your portrayal is a vast exaggeration over what the NFL officially reported about the issue and what the majority of people think.

deoxy4 said:

I really don't pay much attention to NFL salaries. I think they all are grossly over paid. But you have motivated me to look. OMG! Now I know why Brady is so hated by players, opposing fans, and sports agents across the league. I bet every GM throws the summary of Brady's contract on the table at the start of a salary negotiation with a QB. They must reply "That's Brady, let's get real!"

Brady is so under paid, it's almost unbelievable. What an advantage the Patriots have and really have had. To be able to have had such a great player at such a discount. It is almost criminal. No wonder so many other NFL fans hope and predict his demise. It really shows how much Brady loves football, the position he is in with Belichick, the team and Kraft. It really has opened my eyes.

Reason for the Patriots competitiveness for 15 years:
1. Brady's bargain contract.
2. Brady's play and Belichick's GM/Coaching.

I might be convinced that's it. Brady so selfless. What a legend. A saint. Gush!

Click to expand...

Since you can't see, I'm playing the world's tiniest violin for Mr Brady. Didn't know he'd been promoted to saint. Say your prayers to him, I won't be, [emoji28] But I'm not surprised. That Patriots koolaid is strong stuff!

deoxy4 said:

As they say in Boston. "Brady is ...wicked... pissah!" 3-0 without Brady and Sexy Rexy on deck. Belichick preparing a game plan as Sexy Rexy is preparing for his next job as a standup comedian at Giggles! Brady back in week 5. Maybe a 3 game lead in the AFC East after 4 games when the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills predicted this was their year. Goodell stick it!

GO SOX! Boston fans spoiled ... you bet!

Click to expand...

It is fun when y'all play Rex. It's nice to have such enthusiastic fans but such spoiled fans turn vicious on a dime which just isn't good for anyone. Denver has a core of fans that will stick through anything but also plenty of more recent spoiled fair weather fans. I get really irritated sometimes how quickly they can turn on the team. But it could be worse, I could live in New England! [emoji33]

August West said:

Spoiler

View attachment 692618

Click to expand...

Is that young Aaron Rodgers? [emoji1]

TexFlood said:

Is that young Aaron Rodgers? [emoji1]

Click to expand...

Perfect!

[YouTube]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7WZ33w3B8Hw[/YouTube]

The NFL didn't care the Bronco's were strapped for cash in building a stadium and felt they had to circumvent guidelines. (Kraft built his own stadium too.) If the Bronco's didn't have the cash cut players and downsize the payroll. Don't put seats in the stadium or rest rooms and pay the players under the guidelines.

Patriot fans vicious in regards to Rex? Ha! It doesn't matter what team Rex is coaching. His team is to play the Dolphins and Rex spends the whole press conference talking about Belichick and Brady. He makes comments about the Patriots/Belichick all year long and has for years. He makes comments like "I'm not kissing Belichick's rings." Rex, hello, no one asked you to. Rex he's in your head. Rex puts his ego above the team. Brady's suspension is upheld. Rex claims he has won the off season and without Brady this year is going to be different. I guess not, to date. "Walt" calls in to question Edelman in a press conference. Just a reminder, Rex your team is 1-3. Good use of his time-I think not. He impersonates Belichick addressing the injury report. Priceless.

Maybe this approach will work for Rex this time.

Some coaches:
Never fuel the fire of the other team
Never allow their players to fuel the fire
Speak up their opponents
Never give more than they need to the media
Never read or respond to social media
Couldn't care less what the fans or anyone else think
Aren't afraid to make tough decisions

Hey, we are fans of different teams. I wouldn't expect you to root for the Patriots or Brady. We have had some years we could say "You hate us...because you ain't us." You got the rights this year. You won that right fair and square. 31 other teams are trying to take that from you and aren't Bronco fans.

deoxy4 said:

The NFL didn't care the Bronco's were strapped for cash in building a stadium and felt they had to circumvent guidelines. (Kraft built his own stadium too.) If the Bronco's didn't have the cash cut players and downsize the payroll. Don't put seats in the stadium or rest rooms and pay the players under the guidelines.

Click to expand...

Yeah yeah. It's a vast Broncos conspiracy. Yawn...

deoxy4 said:

Patriot fans vicious in regards to Rex? Ha! It doesn't matter what team Rex is coaching. His team is to play the Dolphins and Rex spends the whole press conference talking about Belichick and Brady. He makes comments about the Patriots/Belichick all year long and has for years. He makes comments like "I'm not kissing Belichick's rings." Rex, hello, no one asked you to. Rex he's in your head. Rex puts his ego above the team. Brady's suspension is upheld. Rex claims he has won the off season and without Brady this year is going to be different. I guess not, to date. "Walt" calls in to question Edelman in a press conference. Just a reminder, Rex your team is 1-3. Good use of his time-I think not. He impersonates Belichick addressing the injury report. Priceless.

Maybe this approach will work for Rex this time.

Click to expand...

I expect some rival animosity for Rex. I actually meant the fans turning on the Patriots, particularly the coaches, when they fail to deliver at least near perfection.

deoxy4 said:

Hey, we are fans of different teams. I wouldn't expect you to root for the Patriots or Brady. We have had some years we could say "You hate us...because you ain't us." You got the rights this year. You won that right fair and square. 31 other teams are trying to take that from you and aren't Bronco fans.

Click to expand...

I actually have a lot of respect for the Patriots staff and organization as a whole. But it's easy to go after them when they beat you, as they often do to, well everyone. Especially when there's some evidence that they got an edge in a not quite legit way as seems to be the case with the Pats more than any other team.

Y'all can try to exaggerate the transgressions of other teams to make the Pats look better. But only the faithful who already drank the koolaid are buying it and they're on board anyway. So why bother?

I fall in the camp that believes the Pats are nearly always good enough to win games following the rules. But it's so engrained to look for an edge that like just can't stop themselves, like Donald Trump tweeting [emoji1] So I get it, but that don't make it right..