Grinder issue

Could be a bad batch of beans? I've always assumed that making a pour over cup will give you a good idea of how an espresso will turn out.

-jim

I've been making espresso for a very short time compared to most of the folks offering advice here. I will mention that to me the coffee beans themselves make a difference. Sometimes with the same grind one type of bean will result in too fast extraction in which case I find that I need to modify the grind to a finer position. With my setup it seems I mostly get a great shot using 15.7 grams. A few weeks back I was using some pre-ground Lavazza. 15.7 grams just almost refuse to pass water through the puck. I found that an exact 15 grams was perfect.

Even with the espresso machine maintaining the temperature and pressure and using an Espro calibrated tamper, and weighing the coffee, there are still variables to be controlled. With no PID I've got some temperature surfing and decisions to make on the volume of coffee used and the length of the pull in seconds. Much as with shaving, getting better at controlling the variables to the point of it being an actual skill is what makes this fun and rewarding.

turtle said:

Unless it is mis-designed you will only get about a half porafilter of old grounds when you start.

What kind of awful are you getting?

Too fast?
Too slow
Sour?
biter?

What are you using for a tamper and have you tried to adjust your tamp pressure?

There are more variables to making espresso than there are to shaving.

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I started at a 6 where it looked similar to what I was getting with the hario. It was really fast (10) and under extracted. Yesterday went to a 5 with minor improvements. Tonight's try at a 4 was still too fast (14) and a little bitter. It has good crema and color but some grounds in the bottom of the cup.

I have been testing the same beans (lavazza super crema) each time with the hario to make sure my tamp is producing the same results. I've been getting about twice as much crema and much better taste in about 18-20 seconds.

I know the beans I have aren't with in the recommended 2 weeks from roast but they've been in an air scale since I got them. I have a new found source for fresh roasted beans in town so I should be getting some to try soon.

I bumped the grinder down to a 3 after a few days at 4 with it going too fast still. Results were better crema, slower extraction but a little bitter. I'm getting close to the end of my current stash of beans so I'll be able to get some fresh roasted to try.

Unfortunately not. I got fresh beans from a local roaster and am getting better tasting shots but it's still a fast extraction. The manual grinder seems to perform about the same as it had which is about 16-18 seconds. I've tried pulling shots at grind settings 4-6 so far with a few days between settings so it gets rid of any variation from changing the setting. I have cleaned the grinder and espresso machine.

Have also been watching videos on other machines for a possible purchase in a few months. It looks like I may be tamping to hard compared to what I'm seeing in the videos. Once never used a calibrated tamper but have practiced applying 30 pounds on a scale. I've also been watching the local barista's as they make my drinks and it seems comparable. Hard to gauge my technique without getting good results every time. Every once in a while I do get a good pull and I usually feel like I have talked a little lighter than normal.
Is there any way too much tamping would cause a fast extraction?

I don't believe what you are describing is a tamping issue, you could tamp using 10 pounds or 200 pounds of force and if the coffee is too coarse it will extract too quickly. I would continue to adjust the grind setting finer and finer and use a moderate tamp. A tamp where you are not thinking too much about the exact force, just something to get the coffee to settle in.

It is also important to use a scale or way to repeatably measure the amount of coffee being used. In some of your better pulls you may have been using a little more coffee.

jazzguy said:

Have you cleaned it with Grindz or minute rice? If not you should try that.

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+1 on Grindz. Espresso Parts have been good for us.

So I pulled 2 shots this morning with my new beans on 3. Second had better crema and taste. The shot looks good but it comes out in a flow and send to angle to one side when it starts. Not the thin slow stream i see on most espresso videos that flows straight down. Took longer to start flowing (about 6 seconds) but was still done in about 12 seconds. Maybe my espresso machine is the problem?

Just to make sure I'm timing it correctly, the recommended 20-25 second shot should be counted from when it starts flowing not when you press the button to start brewing?

The video is from a good attempt I had not too long ago. I'll try to post another from what I'm getting now later tonight.
https://vimeo.com/164731215

Coffee flowing out of one side of the double portafilter spout in a fast manner would indicate a couple of issues. Of course I am speculating but the things I would focus on first are:

1. Coffee distribution in the portafilter basket. Some people use a toothpick or similar tool to stir the ground coffee in order to break up any clumps before tamping in order to help ensure consistent density throughout. As depending on your dosage amount, the espresso grind is on the verge of clumping as it comes out of the grinder and can be difficult to evenly load in the basket. Personally, I find loading the portafilter basket evenly to be the most technically (physically) demanding part of brewing a shot. If not loaded evenly the high brewing pressure will cause the water to channel through the weakest layer of coffee, much like how lake water would gush out of a weak point in an earthen damn.

2. Grind setting. It still sounds like the coffee is too coarse. It should not gush out and be finished 6 seconds later.

3. Coffee freshness. This is somewhat inversely related to the grind setting, but if your coffee is not fresh enough then it will have to be ground so fine that things may just not work. (As an aside, I was repairing my lever machine today and did a test/cleaning shot with some old coffee and it a gusher. The second shot with fresh coffee ground on same settings flowed normally.) You mentioned getting fresh coffee, but I would double check whether or not you have something that was roasted within the last 3-4 weeks at least and not some coffee that has sat on the shelf.

As for overall brew timing, it will ultimately depend on your taste preferences but 20-25 after starting flow should be about right. 6-12 seconds is certainly too short. The video of your shot looks like it is getting closer but my first reaction was that your coffee is starting to get stale, that this was still your most significant issue. Even with that I would continue to grind finer or increase the coffee dosage in search of a longer pull. If you continue to grind finer and the coffee doesn't want to naturally clump that is a sign of it being stale.

I descaled and backflushed the machine today. Also disassembled it to try fixing the leaking stream arm. Found some scale under the disc that seals it closed. It's still dripping a little but not near like it was.

I kept the grind seeing at 3 just to test it. I measured out 16 grams and distributed it with a toothpick. It still came out too fast. The crema was better and so was the taste.

The beans I have are from a local roaster so they don't sit on a shelf. I'm not sure exactly when my batch was roasted but I'm sure it's fresher than most brands I've used in the past year.

I will check if it is clumping when grinding. I think it comes out both sides equally fast. The one thing I'm questioning is how after changing the burrs that the espresso has not improved at all. Is there anyway they could be installed improperly? I calibrated it down to where the burrs were just touching as a zero point so I don't think there's anything I did wrong.

Just to test my beans I went back to my manual grinder on the same 2 notch setting I always use. Here's a video from that. The shot was really frothy and after it settled ended up being about 1.5 oz. The taste was bold and strong. Still seems to fast after re watching the video.https://vimeo.com/164936831

jhadsell1883 said:

Just to test my beans I went back to my manual grinder on the same 2 notch setting I always use. Here's a video from that. The shot was really frothy and after it settled ended up being about 1.5 oz. The taste was bold and strong. Still seems to fast after re watching the video.https://vimeo.com/164936831

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That is looking a lot better. Perhaps could try adding a gram more of coffee to this setup to see if that improves the shot.

Tested last night with the manual grinder set at one notch. Got a 30 second shot once and choked it twice. The first was a constant stream but a little too slow. Not sure I did anything different with the second and third besides tried a different bean (Costa Rica).

Today I changed back to the 2nd notch and dosed the Costa Rica at 17g. It was still fast like the last video but had good crema and was tasty in my cappuccino. I can handle that but think I'm striving for the ideal looking shot that may not be achievable with my current setup.

Sounds like you are getting close with the manual grinder, i.e. using 1st notch with less coffee versus the 2nd notch with more coffee, but may be running up against the limits of its adjustability. I would recommend taking the same approach with your Gaggia MDF to dial in your shot. That even if operated as a stepped grinder the steps should be smaller enabling you to dial it in much closer.

I tested it this morning with 14g of Uganda from Bridge Street at 2 on the MDF. It was similar to the results I was getting with the manual grinder. Lots of crema and good taste. I'm not sure if the Uganda bean is just different than what I've been having recently or if it's a bit bitter. I'll have to try the Costa Rica tonight with those settings.

I think I'm getting closer to good results. I haven't used the pressurized portafilter for a few months now and wonder if I've just really never had my grind fine enough. I still have it in my head that other people grind at 4-6 with the MDF so that's where mine should be with new burrs. With all the variables I guess it's just about fine tuning your setup to what works.

Here's my attempt tonight with the Costa Rica on the MDF at 2.https://vimeo.com/165383817

jhadsell1883 said:

I tested it this morning with 14g of Uganda from Bridge Street at 2 on the MDF. It was similar to the results I was getting with the manual grinder. Lots of crema and good taste. I'm not sure if the Uganda bean is just different than what I've been having recently or if it's a bit bitter. I'll have to try the Costa Rica tonight with those settings.

I think I'm getting closer to good results. I haven't used the pressurized portafilter for a few months now and wonder if I've just really never had my grind fine enough. I still have it in my head that other people grind at 4-6 with the MDF so that's where mine should be with new burrs. With all the variables I guess it's just about fine tuning your setup to what works.

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When you reassembled your MDF maybe the burrs were not zero'd out as closely as you thought. Meaning that your '2' may actually be producing the same grind as '5' on a different MDF. As I would also expect the grinder to be designed to have more settings below Espresso to allow some fine tuning and to support Turkish. If you have to go down to '2' or '1' to brew espresso then you have ran out of room.

It is good to hear that your shots are getting better. I would continue to experiment and grind finer as needed.

I think there is definitely a problem somewhere. The burrs are just touching at 2. I can hear it when the beans have run through (I grind what i dose). The stream wand leak issue that has developed is what I'm questioning. Not sure if that is throwing the pressure off. I can take some pics of the ground coffee at a few levels but I think the grinder is similar to what it was doing before. Maybe it's just not good enough though.

jhadsell1883 said:

I think there is definitely a problem somewhere. The burrs are just touching at 2. I can hear it when the beans have run through (I grind what i dose). The stream wand leak issue that has developed is what I'm questioning. Not sure if that is throwing the pressure off. I can take some pics of the ground coffee at a few levels but I think the grinder is similar to what it was doing before. Maybe it's just not good enough though.

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It is my understanding that burr sets are generally designed so that they can touch each other without causing any real damage to the burrs, so in that sense there may be no worries. Of course one does not want to put an unnecessary load on the electric motor or extra wear on the burrs, especially if done by a powerful electric motor. I am not familiar with the MDF or its burr set but I would be very surprised to learn that it was designed to only go down to espresso while at the same time start touching. My Lido 2 hand grinder can go many notches below Turkish setting before it starts to touch or zero out. The beans stop feeding down into the burrs (the beans are too big to fit into the top opening gap) well before the burrs start touch. Which makes me wonder if your MDF burrs became misaligned or something during reassembly? I might suggest taking it apart again to check and carefully reassemble, as it sounds like something is amiss. I have a KitchenAid Burr Grinder which I have not zero'd in many years so my memory is weak on the details, but it behaved quite differently than the Lido in that it could feed beans on the lowest setting (which I think was below espresso but I need to try again to see), so I am not trying to say that your MDF will also not feed on zero/1 setting. The KitchenAid sort of works for Espresso, but there was not enough steps and control of the grind, so I mainly use it for drip brewing these days.

The steam wand leakage could cause a small drop in pressure. Not sure if it is leaking only when (loosened and) used or also when switched off. Either way sounds like a new gasket or o-ring is needed. But I don't think the leak is affecting your fast espresso extraction, since it is making plenty of pressure to power through your coffee bed. If your extraction was too slow or getting slower then I would be worrying about this a lot more.

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