My first shaving brush was a vdh from Walmart when I started using a double edge razor four years ago. My second brush was a whipped dog Silver tip badger brush and that's the only brush I used to this point it's a great brush. I recently looked into simpson's brushes and I decided to go another whipped dog brush. My question is what is the difference between the silver tip badger brush in the high mountain badger brush this one better than the other or are they equal? Quick note I also face lather quite often depending on the mood I may bowl from time to time
What's the difference between the silver tip knot and high Mountain badger knot ?
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The problem with answering this question definitely is that there is no precise definition as to what High Mountain means. I will attempt anyway.
The High Mountain knots I purchased from what turned out to be a very flaky vendor were defined as a type of Finest. the claim also being that it is from a different species of badger that lives in the "high mountains" of Asia. Sometimes hair from this badger or region is called Manchurian.
Finest, in general, has a thicker shaft than Silvertip, giving the knot more backbone. Part of the attempt in creating a Finest, is selecting hair that is courser, but still reasonably soft. When successful, you end up with a knot that is firmer, will take more abuse, and still has a reasonable face feel, not quite as soft as Silvertip, but often nearly so.
The first several High Mountain knots I bought from that vendor pretty much matched that description. I have four High Mountain knots that rival the best of my other Finests, including TGN. Better than most of the Finests I have bought from ACE or Virginia Sheng (the current crop of 19 mm Finests from these two vendors are the exception, they are first cabin).
The most recent High Mountain knots I bought from this vendor were a huge disappointment. They felt fine when I unpacked them, but once they were mounted in handles and got wet they were the floppiest, moppyest thing you could imagine, and when rinsed out looked like a spiky haired teenager. I kept one because in spite of its downsides it is the softest brush I own so I use it once every two or three months just for the soft factor. They certainly didn't meet the vendors description. I have had other problems with them as well so it is not likely that I will be buying from them again. My friend who also ended up with one calls it "bunny fur".
From what I can tell without buying one from Whipped Dog, is that what he sells is like the nice High Mountains I acquired early. If so, I can highly recommend them.
It is different from your Silvertip. Some (many) prefer the stronger backbone and have no trouble with the slightly not as soft face feel. I change off according to my mood and what soap I'm using. In some cases I like it better, but for the most part I'm addicted to Silvertip.
If you are looking for some variety and still want a high quality brush, try it.
The High Mountain knots I purchased from what turned out to be a very flaky vendor were defined as a type of Finest. the claim also being that it is from a different species of badger that lives in the "high mountains" of Asia. Sometimes hair from this badger or region is called Manchurian.
Finest, in general, has a thicker shaft than Silvertip, giving the knot more backbone. Part of the attempt in creating a Finest, is selecting hair that is courser, but still reasonably soft. When successful, you end up with a knot that is firmer, will take more abuse, and still has a reasonable face feel, not quite as soft as Silvertip, but often nearly so.
The first several High Mountain knots I bought from that vendor pretty much matched that description. I have four High Mountain knots that rival the best of my other Finests, including TGN. Better than most of the Finests I have bought from ACE or Virginia Sheng (the current crop of 19 mm Finests from these two vendors are the exception, they are first cabin).
The most recent High Mountain knots I bought from this vendor were a huge disappointment. They felt fine when I unpacked them, but once they were mounted in handles and got wet they were the floppiest, moppyest thing you could imagine, and when rinsed out looked like a spiky haired teenager. I kept one because in spite of its downsides it is the softest brush I own so I use it once every two or three months just for the soft factor. They certainly didn't meet the vendors description. I have had other problems with them as well so it is not likely that I will be buying from them again. My friend who also ended up with one calls it "bunny fur".
From what I can tell without buying one from Whipped Dog, is that what he sells is like the nice High Mountains I acquired early. If so, I can highly recommend them.
It is different from your Silvertip. Some (many) prefer the stronger backbone and have no trouble with the slightly not as soft face feel. I change off according to my mood and what soap I'm using. In some cases I like it better, but for the most part I'm addicted to Silvertip.
If you are looking for some variety and still want a high quality brush, try it.
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Thanks for the advice it's much appreciated.
Wish I could link to the source, but reasons. Anyway -
A "true" High Mountain White or Manchurian badger brush will be made from a small section of hairs on the neck of the European Badger (Meles Meles). However many brushes marketed as "High Mountain brushes" come from the pelt of a hog badger, rather than the more common European badger. Hog badger hairs are about 1.5 times thicker than European badger hairs, giving them a bit more backbone. True High Mountain White hair is more expensive, due to the small area of pelt it can be collected from
A "true" High Mountain White or Manchurian badger brush will be made from a small section of hairs on the neck of the European Badger (Meles Meles). However many brushes marketed as "High Mountain brushes" come from the pelt of a hog badger, rather than the more common European badger. Hog badger hairs are about 1.5 times thicker than European badger hairs, giving them a bit more backbone. True High Mountain White hair is more expensive, due to the small area of pelt it can be collected from
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Bunny fur? Sounds so cute and cuddly.
Hard to really answer this as they differ from vendor to vendor. In theory, HMW (aka Manchurian) is supposed to have more backbone than Silvertip with soft, gel like tips. Think of a "Best" badger feel with a much softer face feel. My limited experience, however, has been different. WSP HMW seems softer AND floppier to me than my Silvertip. I would like very much to order a Plisson but can't get myself there given how much I like my Silvertip. Maybe when something else wears out.
Just for clarification High Mountain and High Mountain White are not necessarily the same thing. Whipped Dog sells High Mountain, a two band that I believe meets the definition of Finest.
The Golden Nib sells a High Mountain White, and according to their web site it is a three band knot with white tips. They claim it has a lot of backbone but also point out that it isn't as soft as Solvertip.
In the absence of some better information from the sources, we should not assume the High Mountain = High Mountain White.
The Golden Nib sells a High Mountain White, and according to their web site it is a three band knot with white tips. They claim it has a lot of backbone but also point out that it isn't as soft as Solvertip.
In the absence of some better information from the sources, we should not assume the High Mountain = High Mountain White.
I think you are pretty much correct in your assessment, and I really wish that Larry/WD had a different name for this knot.
Don't get me wrong, I have a WD HM, and really really like it. Like a lot. The problem is that in most brushes, the high mountain "white", or Manchurian is a super premium knot. The WD is very much like a TGN Finest. A GREAT knot, just leaves a lot of questions.
My thought is to treat the WD High Mountain like a Finest from other brands, and MAYBE even like a Best from Simpson, just way less dense, and a bit scratchier.
Best natural knot WD sells, IMO
G'day I hope this will help you,
Badger. Badger bristles are one of the traditional fibers used in brushes. Badger hair has some unusual properties that make it ideal for use in a shave brush. Badger bristles are actually wider at the tips than they are at the base. This is part of what gives a badger brush it’s characteristic “bloom.” Like a flower opening up, badger brushes go through a similar process after they have been used a few times. Badger bristles trap water in between the bristles. This results in a brush that has excellent water retention properties. The tips of badger brushes are also typically softer than boar bristles and as such, badger brushes require less of a break-in time than boar brushes. There are several different grades of Badger brushes and this adds to the inexperienced shaver’s confusion. To compound this, different brush makers use their own grading system. Top manufacturers include Vulfix-Simpson and Rooney.
NOTE: New badger and boar brushes and older brushes that have been unused for a time have a pungent odor. This smell can be strong or faint when you first get the brush. Over time, as you use the brush the smell will go away. There are also cleaners manufactured specifically for cleaning cosmetic brushes. Using these cleaners is the recommended method of sanitizing, cleaning and "de-funking" a brush.
Photo of European badger pelt courtesy of Tiste. The above diagram is not entirely accurate, as back hair is considered too wispy for use in shave brush knots. Most hair used in brushes comes from the neck and upper shoulders.
This is the general grade system:
Pure Bristle. Any brush that is labeled “badger bristle” typically falls into this category. The bristles can come from any part of the badger and the knots are trimmed into shape. Unless you prefer a stiff, very scratchy brush, new users are better off using a better grade of badger brush. These machine made brushes never pack the bristles as tightly as hand formed knots do, and as a result, they tend to shed bristles, often throughout the entire life of the brush. In some rare instances, tangling can occur when the knot is thinned out or loosely packed. These brushes retail for about $10-$20. Primary manufacturers are Van der Hagen and Tweezerman.
*Note: Pure Badger from European and British manufacturers use a mix of black, brown, grey, and silvertip hairs. This gives the brush an overall grey look. These brushes are generally of good quality, but some people find thim excessively prickly. $40-50
Best. The British manufacturers call this "Pure Badger." Best Badger brushes fall into two categories, Some contain a mix of full length hairs and trimmed hairs or more commonly, full hairs only, but harvested from lower grades of hair, generally from the belly section. $30-$60
Two-band or Finest. Two-band brushes are so called because instead of the light, dark, light configuration of most badger brushes, they just have a dark to light bristle configuration. These brushes are made from the thickest badger hairs. They are both less dense and stiffer than most badger brushes. These are favorites of face latherers, though any user can enjoy a two-band badger brush. $60-$120
Super. High end British manufacturers call this grade, "Best." The grade just below or equal to Silvertip. These brushes are not quite as soft as Silvertip brushes and are otherwise nearly identical in softness and performance once broken in. Some retailers have started bleaching and treating the tips of Super brushes to give them silvertip like properties. $60-$120+
Three Band. Similar in concept to the Two Band, but made from what British manufacturers call "Best" badger and what the rest of the world calls "Silvertip" badger. These brushes are essentially an ultra-dense Silvertip brush with a good backbone, ideal for face latherers or those who like a stiff soft badger brush. Note: Many badger brushes have three bands of hair color, but that does not automatically make the brush a Three Band brush. Only densely packed Silvertip knots should be called a "Three Band Brush." $100+
Silvertip. The British manufacturers call this grade "Super," and consider it to be a step above a "normal" Silvertip brush. These are the nom plus ultra of the brush world. These brushes are made from the badger’s softest hairs, which are harvested from the muzzle, neck and back of the badger. These hairs have a distinctive gray hue at the tips and when viewed from above, look silver colored, thus the name- "silver tip." Due to the limited supply and quality of Silvertip hair, these brushes command a premium. $80-$200+
High Mountain White & Manchurian. Sometimes called other names as well- Genuine White, Upland White, etc. These are generally limited edition brushes with magical powers and inflated price tags. In actuality, these are mostly two band brushes with different coloration than the other brushes that particular manufacturer sells. Marketing and hype are these brush's main features. How the knot is formed and the density of the hair mostly determine the face feel of a badger knot, not the coloring of the hair.
A "true" High Mountain White or Manchurian badger brush will be made from a small section of hairs on the neck of the European Badger (Meles Meles). However many brushes marketed as "High Mountain brushes" come from the pelt of a hog badger, rather than the more common European badger. Hog badger hairs are about 1.5 times thicker than European badger hairs, giving them a bit more backbone. Does it make a difference in the quality? Nope. It shouldn't make a difference in price either, as the knots are sourced from China, and the cost is about the same as their silvertip counterparts. True High Mountain White hair is more expensive, due to the small area of pelt it can be collected from.
Thanks too PLANofMAN
Badger. Badger bristles are one of the traditional fibers used in brushes. Badger hair has some unusual properties that make it ideal for use in a shave brush. Badger bristles are actually wider at the tips than they are at the base. This is part of what gives a badger brush it’s characteristic “bloom.” Like a flower opening up, badger brushes go through a similar process after they have been used a few times. Badger bristles trap water in between the bristles. This results in a brush that has excellent water retention properties. The tips of badger brushes are also typically softer than boar bristles and as such, badger brushes require less of a break-in time than boar brushes. There are several different grades of Badger brushes and this adds to the inexperienced shaver’s confusion. To compound this, different brush makers use their own grading system. Top manufacturers include Vulfix-Simpson and Rooney.
NOTE: New badger and boar brushes and older brushes that have been unused for a time have a pungent odor. This smell can be strong or faint when you first get the brush. Over time, as you use the brush the smell will go away. There are also cleaners manufactured specifically for cleaning cosmetic brushes. Using these cleaners is the recommended method of sanitizing, cleaning and "de-funking" a brush.
Photo of European badger pelt courtesy of Tiste. The above diagram is not entirely accurate, as back hair is considered too wispy for use in shave brush knots. Most hair used in brushes comes from the neck and upper shoulders.
This is the general grade system:
Pure Bristle. Any brush that is labeled “badger bristle” typically falls into this category. The bristles can come from any part of the badger and the knots are trimmed into shape. Unless you prefer a stiff, very scratchy brush, new users are better off using a better grade of badger brush. These machine made brushes never pack the bristles as tightly as hand formed knots do, and as a result, they tend to shed bristles, often throughout the entire life of the brush. In some rare instances, tangling can occur when the knot is thinned out or loosely packed. These brushes retail for about $10-$20. Primary manufacturers are Van der Hagen and Tweezerman.
*Note: Pure Badger from European and British manufacturers use a mix of black, brown, grey, and silvertip hairs. This gives the brush an overall grey look. These brushes are generally of good quality, but some people find thim excessively prickly. $40-50
Best. The British manufacturers call this "Pure Badger." Best Badger brushes fall into two categories, Some contain a mix of full length hairs and trimmed hairs or more commonly, full hairs only, but harvested from lower grades of hair, generally from the belly section. $30-$60
Two-band or Finest. Two-band brushes are so called because instead of the light, dark, light configuration of most badger brushes, they just have a dark to light bristle configuration. These brushes are made from the thickest badger hairs. They are both less dense and stiffer than most badger brushes. These are favorites of face latherers, though any user can enjoy a two-band badger brush. $60-$120
Super. High end British manufacturers call this grade, "Best." The grade just below or equal to Silvertip. These brushes are not quite as soft as Silvertip brushes and are otherwise nearly identical in softness and performance once broken in. Some retailers have started bleaching and treating the tips of Super brushes to give them silvertip like properties. $60-$120+
Three Band. Similar in concept to the Two Band, but made from what British manufacturers call "Best" badger and what the rest of the world calls "Silvertip" badger. These brushes are essentially an ultra-dense Silvertip brush with a good backbone, ideal for face latherers or those who like a stiff soft badger brush. Note: Many badger brushes have three bands of hair color, but that does not automatically make the brush a Three Band brush. Only densely packed Silvertip knots should be called a "Three Band Brush." $100+
Silvertip. The British manufacturers call this grade "Super," and consider it to be a step above a "normal" Silvertip brush. These are the nom plus ultra of the brush world. These brushes are made from the badger’s softest hairs, which are harvested from the muzzle, neck and back of the badger. These hairs have a distinctive gray hue at the tips and when viewed from above, look silver colored, thus the name- "silver tip." Due to the limited supply and quality of Silvertip hair, these brushes command a premium. $80-$200+
High Mountain White & Manchurian. Sometimes called other names as well- Genuine White, Upland White, etc. These are generally limited edition brushes with magical powers and inflated price tags. In actuality, these are mostly two band brushes with different coloration than the other brushes that particular manufacturer sells. Marketing and hype are these brush's main features. How the knot is formed and the density of the hair mostly determine the face feel of a badger knot, not the coloring of the hair.
A "true" High Mountain White or Manchurian badger brush will be made from a small section of hairs on the neck of the European Badger (Meles Meles). However many brushes marketed as "High Mountain brushes" come from the pelt of a hog badger, rather than the more common European badger. Hog badger hairs are about 1.5 times thicker than European badger hairs, giving them a bit more backbone. Does it make a difference in the quality? Nope. It shouldn't make a difference in price either, as the knots are sourced from China, and the cost is about the same as their silvertip counterparts. True High Mountain White hair is more expensive, due to the small area of pelt it can be collected from.
Thanks too PLANofMAN
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Thanks to PLANofMAN for this information not me I was just trying to help out 'What's the difference between the silver tip knot and high Mountain badger knot ? That's all
Happy Australia Day
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That is an amazing explanation, thank you Speedy.
If only I knew better, I'd may have taken a pass on my first brush which is a Parker pure badger. It's okay I guess, but I have no other badgers to compare it to. I'm drooling over the High Mountain or Manchurian right now.
If only I knew better, I'd may have taken a pass on my first brush which is a Parker pure badger. It's okay I guess, but I have no other badgers to compare it to. I'm drooling over the High Mountain or Manchurian right now.
The WD High Mountain is not a High Mountain White, nor is it advertised as such. Just clearing the air a bit. I have one and like it.
I want a badger pelt now...
So guys if we are looking to buy real Manchurian badger brush, who do we buy it from? The hair on the neck of a Meles Meles kind.
Simpsons is your safest bet. Expensive, but the real deal.
+1 I agree with the Simpsons Brushes and it can be very expensive.
Meles meles is a European badger. Not the Chinese kind.
Lol I'm even more confused than I thought. 
But if we are looking for a real Manchurian badger and real high mountain that comes from the neck kind, who are reputable go to sellers we can trust? I never had any, I wouldn't know what to compare it to but I'm definitely going to add this kind of brush on my wish list.
But if we are looking for a real Manchurian badger and real high mountain that comes from the neck kind, who are reputable go to sellers we can trust? I never had any, I wouldn't know what to compare it to but I'm definitely going to add this kind of brush on my wish list.
IME Simpson best is scratchy and floppy, not dense. Though I only tried a lower end Simpson brush and have only my wonderful 2 band or boar to compare it to.
This thread has really opened my eyes to why I have my particular taste in brushes. I do love my finest for luxurious softness and backbone while I face lather. I hadn't looked into TGN finest but I've been eyeing WD HMW and its good to know I'm on the right track!
