Why no tallow based soaps?

En passant, have you tried any QED, HBS, or Mama Bear?

I'm pretty sure you'll agree that it does not have to be tallow based to meet the standards you're looking for.

As always, YMMV; but the above-mentioned 3 brands provide me with stuff as good - if not better than (in certain cases) - Tabac and Speick.

QED has the advantage in that it supplies the best olfactory satisfaction.

Let us know how things go...

Tallow soaps are no harder to make than veggie oil-based soaps using the cold process method. Tallow is just another fat. I think the difference is that most of the tallow soaps are also triple-milled, which squeezes the air out and makes them harder and denser.

momo360 said:

I'm pretty sure you'll agree that it does not have to be tallow based to meet the standards you're looking for.

As always, YMMV; but the above-mentioned 3 brands provide me with stuff as good - if not better than (in certain cases) - Tabac and Speick.

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Not if the standards include the use of tallow

The glycerine soaps tend to be more strongly scented and are available in a wider library of scents, and if that is a primary consideration then the glycerine soaps may well rise to the top of your list. But some people, myself included, simply do not like the way glycerine soaps lather and shave no matter what the scent. I would rather shave with Williams (which is tallow-based) than with just about any glycerine soap out there - in fact Williams was my gateway soap from glycerine to hard soaps.

mparker762 said:

Not if the standards include the use of tallow

The glycerine soaps tend to be more strongly scented and are available in a wider library of scents, and if that is a primary consideration then the glycerine soaps may well rise to the top of your list. But some people, myself included, simply do not like the way glycerine soaps lather and shave no matter what the scent. I would rather shave with Williams (which is tallow-based) than with just about any glycerine soap out there - in fact Williams was my gateway soap from glycerine to hard soaps.

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Then all me to ask this for sake of discussion: which non-tallow based soaps have you tried until now?

momo360 said:

Then all me to ask this for sake of discussion: which non-tallow based soaps have you tried until now?

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I think there's a lot of confusion in soap types, tallow-based, vegetable based, cold pour, triple milled, glycerin, etc. I know I've tried Conk, Van der Hagen, Classic Shaving, and probably about a half dozen artisan soaps, and I simply prefer triple milled soaps over anything else I've tried, both for the shave and for the economy. Out of the other ones I've listed, I like Van der Hagen an awful lot. If I had to choose between tallow and vegetable triple milled, I lean toward the tallow, but have some vegetable based soaps I like, like Revivage.

momo360 said:

En passant, have you tried any QED, HBS, or Mama Bear?

I'm pretty sure you'll agree that it does not have to be tallow based to meet the standards you're looking for.

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I have and no I don't agree. For me the glycerin based soaps do not lather anywhere near as well as the tallow based soaps nor do they provide the same level of performance. If they work great for you that is awesome but this thread is about tallow based soaps. Please don't turn this thread into a tallow vs. glycerin debate, take it elsewhere.

ladyintheroom said:

My shave creams are tallow based. I have yet to develop a hard shaving soap that I am satisfied with enough to market, but am still working on it. Yes it will be tallow based and I think I am getting closer.

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Hi Jean, I placed an order this morning. I can't wait to try your cream!


So here is the list of confirmed tallow based soaps so far:

• Tabac
• Speick
• Erasmic Shave Stick (not the soap in a bowl)
• Valbroa Shave Stick (not the "soft" soap")
• Arko Shave Stick
• Cella Crema da Sapone
• Cella Crema da Barba All´Olio di Mandorla
• Sir Irisch Moos Shave Stick
• MyTimeBathandBody.com Shave Cream
• D.R. Harris (sort of, primarily palm oil but with some tallow)
• Mitchell’s Wool Fat

I'll update as I find more confirmation.

I still don't understand why none of our resident soap making stars don't use tallow.

Joe

Update #1 5/28/08 Add additional soaps to the list.

murchmb said:

• GFT, Not any more

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I'm pretty sure you can still get tallow based GFT - I've been to both, Pasteurs and Cambridge chemists, and both have what I think is tallow based GFT Rose soap in a bowl.

The package is older looking than all other scents and lists ingredients as "soap base", rather than newer ingredients lists that have "sodium palmate" in the first place.

As far as I could tell, only Rose in a bowl was like that. All other scents and refills were palm based.

JoePerri said:

I have and no I don't agree. For me the glycerin based soaps do not lather anywhere near as well as the tallow based soaps nor do they provide the same level of performance.

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Very good, then that's that.

JoePerri said:

If they work great for you that is awesome but this thread is about tallow based soaps. Please don't turn this thread into a tallow vs. glycerin debate, take it elsewhere.

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I wasn't trying to turn this thread into anything vs. another; but simply wanted to compare our experiences with different soaps.

In fact, I just finished lathering up some Williams and QED Sandalwood for fun to compare results based on previous posts in this thread.

This is all in good fun here, and was purely for experimental purposes and good discussion; not hijacking threads or offending anyone.

Moe

SMF has a nice database of ingredients. It's by no means complete, but there are a several tallow based soaps listed.

JoePerri said:

Possible but not confirmed:
D.R. Harris (I sent an email asking for the ingredient list)

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Dr Harris soaps are tallow
i have a lavender here.

bsc2009 said:

Dr Harris soaps are tallow
i have a lavender here.

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It looks like they are primarily Palm Oil with some added tallow. The primary ingredient on the label shown on SMF is sodium palmate. Can you confirm this on yours?

Thanks,
Joe

Hi folks,

All soap is a mixture of sodium or potassium hydroxide and some saponifiable oils or fats (some lipids can't be made into soap). In most cases, soap and glycerin[e] are the resulting products from this reaction, though it is possible to make soap that contains no glycerin using chemicals instead of natural fats. You can make soap with or without tallow; if you oppose the use of animal products, palm oil is a fairly close chemical cognate to tallow and imparts similar characteristics to the soap.

Melt-and-pour products are just barely "soap" by the conventional definition. Detergents contain no glycerin unless it's added during the chemical manufacturing process. Soap manufacturers often boil off the glycerin and sell it separately; sometimes they replace the glycerin with some other, cheaper moisturizer.

Glycerin, whether in a hard, cream, clear, or what-have-you soap, binds to water and holds moisture. It is thus known as a 'humectant', or 'moisturizer'.

I haven't scrubbed through the archives to see if someone else has said this, but I hope it is useful, even if potentially redundant. No soap is "glycerin-based", but rather glycerin is a product of the soap-making process.

Jesse

very interesting, indeed.

thanks, Jesse.

soapbox said:

Hi folks,

All soap is a mixture of sodium or potassium hydroxide and some saponifiable oils or fats (some lipids can't be made into soap). In most cases, soap and glycerin[e] are the resulting products from this reaction, though it is possible to make soap that contains no glycerin using chemicals instead of natural fats. You can make soap with or without tallow; if you oppose the use of animal products, palm oil is a fairly close chemical cognate to tallow and imparts similar characteristics to the soap.

Melt-and-pour products are just barely "soap" by the conventional definition. Detergents contain no glycerin unless it's added during the chemical manufacturing process. Soap manufacturers often boil off the glycerin and sell it separately; sometimes they replace the glycerin with some other, cheaper moisturizer.

Glycerin, whether in a hard, cream, clear, or what-have-you soap, binds to water and holds moisture. It is thus known as a 'humectant', or 'moisturizer'.

I haven't scrubbed through the archives to see if someone else has said this, but I hope it is useful, even if potentially redundant. No soap is "glycerin-based", but rather glycerin is a product of the soap-making process.

Jesse

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VERY helpful Jesse!

Let me see if I understand correctly.

True soaps are made from saponified oils or fats. They can contain glycerin or it may be removed. When we talk about "tallow based" soaps we are talking about true soaps made with tallow. They may contain glycerin as well. When we talk about "glycerin based" soaps we are talking about "melt & pour" soaps that are not really true soaps but have glycerin added.

So that summarizes as four kinds:

• Tallow based true soaps. (may contain glycerin as well)
• Palm Oil or other oil based true soaps. (may contain glycerin as well)
• Melt & Pour soaps commonly referred to as "glycerin soap" - not a true soap.
• Combo soaps made from vegetable(Palm) oils & tallow.

JoePerri said:

VERY helpful Jesse!

Let me see if I understand correctly.

True soaps are made from saponified oils or fats. They can contain glycerin or it may be removed. When we talk about "tallow based" soaps we are talking about true soaps made with tallow. They may contain glycerin as well. When we talk about "glycerin based" soaps we are talking about "melt & pour" soaps that are not really true soaps but have glycerin added.

So that summarizes as four kinds:

• Tallow based true soaps. (may contain glycerin as well)
• Palm Oil or other oil based true soaps. (may contain glycerin as well)
• Melt & Pour soaps commonly referred to as "glycerin soap" - not a true soap.
• Combo soaps made from vegetable(Palm) oils & tallow.

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Thanks for your kind words.

First, one correction; "melt and pour" contains about 50% soap, and the rest solvents or additives. I don't know of these products being referred to as a "glycerin soap" or not, but certainly you could add glycerine to a melt-and-pour product. I said it barely fits the definition of a soap because it's only about half soap.

I'd classify things like this:

1. Soap
- sodium hydroxide (lye) based, reacted with some combination of lipids; makes a hard soap, probably containing glycerin
- potassium hydroxide (also a lye) based, reacted with some combination of lipids; makes a very soft or liquid soap, probably containing glycerin

2. Detergents
- not a soap, but very broadly defined as a 'cleaning agent'; detergents are often made from petroleum; contains no glycerin unless added; may be liquid or solid; may contain lots of additives; and doesn't leave a soap scum or soap ring (Zest is a detergent bar, e.g.).

Tallow is one lipid you can use to make soap. So is palm oil, olive oil, flaxseed oil, etc. but not mineral oil or petroleum oil, or, oddly enough, steroids.

Clear/translucent soaps are made with the inclusion of very strong alcohol and possibly sugar. These inclusions have no effect on the presence or absence of glycerin. Though glycerin is a clear, viscous liquid, it does not impart any translucent properties to a hard bar of soap. Sometimes glycerin is added in the process of making a translucent soap, but the soap is still based on a reaction of fats and/or oils and lye.

Sorry to drone on like a chemistry professor.

Jesse

Evbo said:

Have a look here. This woman makes tallow-based soaps in a number of different fragrances, some of which are EO-based (she even has a "Cannabis" scent but something tells me it's not EO-based ).

I haven't tried her wares; perhaps some other, more seasoned members of this forum have.

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The Cannabis scent would go over real well at work! lol
Would be getting pee tested pretty quick. lol

OK, I have created a page in the wiki listing the known tallow based soaps. It can be found here. I will add to it as more are identified.

Jesse, can I use some of your posts to flesh out a wiki article on the basics of soap and soap making? Feel free to contribute directly to the wiki, anyone can edit a page or create a new one.

Joe

JoePerri said:

Jesse, can I use some of your posts to flesh out a wiki article on the basics of soap and soap making? Feel free to contribute directly to the wiki, anyone can edit a page or create a new one.

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Hi Joe,

Sure, happy to contribute. PM me the post and I'll start editing. Dad's the one who really knows this stuff (and I got him to start using an old flaretip a few weeks ago, for the first time in 30 years), so maybe I'll ask him to edit it too.

Jesse

The stub is here. It is just a basic paragraph at this point. Thanks for your help!

Joe

Olivia's soap is Tallow based. (and a Damm fine soap it is) It is listed as a cream but thats not quite right- its a soft soap.This is more than likely a language issue.