Traditional wet shaving market penetration? Boom? Status Quo? Game Over?

Grim:
The question was about possible market expansion. I didn't interpret the poll to be, "do you think more brick and mortar stores are on the horizon".
I totally agree with your opening statements. I alluded to them when I said that when looking for a cartridge replacement I was shocked that I could still get a DE razor. Now, if you think my response contained wishful thinking... I'd probably agree with you, though it was not blind faith.

I do not think the dearth of easy availability at the local drugstore will determine the future of classic wet shaving. I do believe the Internet will. And yes, while I would not purchase a car off the internet, I would and HAVE purchased 4 badger brushes, a dozen creams, two razors and 2 soaps off the Internet. With the availability of blade sampler packs, and cream and soap sampler packages, you can get some of that physical handling some folk need to commit to a purchase.

Availability through on-line purchasing, combined with what I believe to be a suicidal move to add more blades (and COST) to carts, could (not will... I'm predicting the future here), lead to significant growth in the classic shaving marketplace. There I go with wishful thinking again.

So apart from the specialty stores, the Art of Shaving, the pharmacies, the Walmarts, the Targets, the Turkish, Arab and Indian groceries, and a gazillion places to buy online that didn't exist 10 years ago, where can you buy traditional wet shaving products?
Nowhere. It's a lost cause gents, we might as well pack up now.

And btw, NYC is 226 miles from DC.
So [emoji14]

TexLaw said:

As far as difficulty, you may just need to look around a little more than on the internet. That said, it still can tell us something. In fact, I see

I cannot speak to Wegmans how it may not get any bigger, but HEB is one of the major supermarkets in the Houston area (and it has over 3x as many locations as Wegmans). I did a quick search and see that HEB carries VDH blades and soaps, as well as Gem Blue Star SE blades. I don't know anything about the VDH blades, but they're there.

As far as "doesn't get much bigger," I've already mentioned Wal-Mart, and I could walk right into the nearest Wal-Mart and pick up VDH soap.

Really, I wouldn't expect any supermarket to carry much in the way of brushes or razors, if any, as supermarkets seem much more concerned with consumables, these days. I remember back when grocery stores carried all sorts of toys, socks, and all sorts of things. I don't know if supermarkets are quite the standard for mainstream. Did you look at any drug stores in your area?

I don't see how you can dismiss AoS out of hand, either. They are concerned with their own brand, but they carry a very good selection of DE razors.

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By large store, I meant Wegmans carries a huge variety of products, mostly upscale. Somewhat like Whole Foods but far more products and more targeted to complete food preparation in that you can buy just a lobster or have the meal ready cooked and just take it home - as all the normal stuff. They might carry vegetables hard to get in "normal" super markets. But aside from that.

Like I said, I was looking more for a store like the ones I mentioned (e.g., Maggards, Superior Shave, Q brothers, etc.) Places that specialize in product. If you want to look at Walmart, even Sephora, L'Occitance, and E&C, stores found in about every mall in America, carry one or two soaps or creams, but its not a focused store.

Think of it like this. If I want to buy hardware, I want a hardware store, or Home Depot. I don't want to go into a Sephoras to find Jack Black or Rebranded Proraso. To be mainstream:

• I want to see the complete selection of Simpson Brushes. To pick them up and see how the feel in my hand. To know which ones are too big or too small.

• I want to be able to smell the scents of many aftershaves and soaps, not read a description or how one person like it and another did not.

Until such stores are readily available, it will be very difficult, IMO, to move forward.

As to AOS, I have been in there several time. Mostly its empty with bored looking employees. They did have creams/soaps you could smell. Kudos to them. I did buy some. Even bought a bowl (a mistake as a rebranded Muhle. I know, I could use a $1 plastic thing but not if it sits out). But they also sell $190 handles for fusion razors. OK ... Nuff said. If you want to be mainstream - provide a wide variety. I dismiss them now out of hand because - been there, done that. Over it. Thats just me.

MpMinNY said:

Grim:
The question was about possible market expansion. I didn't interpret the poll to be, "do you think more brick and mortar stores are on the horizon".

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And you shouldn't. Its not about that. I should have never mentioned that. Forget about where you can buy them. I was projected what I think mainstream America wants, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe everyone wants to buy off the internet.

While I want to walk into a store, I guess few other do. That's OK.

MpMinNY said:

With the availability of blade sampler packs, and cream and soap sampler packages, you can get some of that physical handling some folk need to commit to a purchase.

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And I understand that. But you and I and everyone here are making some kind of commitment. We are NOT mainstream. We are way off the edge in a niche. Maybe I should have put it this way.

When you are vested into doing something, you will go out of your way to accept things you might not readily do in the rest of your life. That's why people call it a "hobby". You will go out of your way. Are you so willing to do that the next time you buy toothpaste and a toothbrush? I've ordered samples. But to be frank - seriously - its a PAIN. I'm guessing at things. Some I hate. Some I like. Some is money out the window. But I'm willing to do it because I have an interest.

If you told me to try different toothpaste samples, I'd laugh. And that is exactly what the mainstream is probably doing with me.. Look at that guy getting packages delivered every other day. UPS is living at his house Big Brown should just park there. ROFL. My mailman knows when I'm getting stuff. They just think - Oh him - he's ordering more shaving stuff. Duh!

grim said:

These are both good points.
ROFL. It does hurt. In what other part of life to people willingly create pain for themselves?

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Oh I forgot to add; Many guys do fear DE blades. I tried to convert two guys once and one of them said that they are dangerous LOL. I heard many guys say this but in reality they have no idea what they are missing.

First, keep in mind I have been a traditional shaver for 50+ years. I started shaving before the Internet and my choices were very limited.

Yes, it is true that Gillette and others introduced razors years ago. In fact, I bought a FB and Slim right after they came out. But take a look at the variety and price points of razors today. The selection has never been better both with vintage and new razors. RR, ATT, RR, Maggard, Muhle, Merkur, etc. all have razors that are available today that were not around when I start shaving. You can get razors in every conceivable metal. Back then we had a choice of at most 15 razors. Today that choice is hundreds. And if you don't like the appearance of your razor, today it can be replated.

And then we get to blades. When I started shaving it was Gillette Blue Blades and then later on Wilkinson. Take a look today. Even online retailers like Amazon carry a vast selection. Even drug and grocery stores carry some - albeit not as many as online sources.

As for software, there is no comparison to what we have available today. Back when I started the limitations were severe. Gillette, Palmolive, Colgate, Old Spice, and Noxema were the choices that came to mind. Go to any website today and there are hundred to choose from.

The selection of brushes today is simply incredible. You can get brushes from all over the world as well as custom brushes that nobody would have dreamed of years ago. I would never have believed I could have had custom made brush in any format as today. Synthetic? Would never have believed it. It was cheap badger and boar. That was it.

I could go on. ASB? Didn't know it existed. Moisturizers? Never heard of them.

In brief, tradtional shaving has never been better. You may not find what you want in brick and mortar stores but in this day of Intrnet shopping that is irrelevant. Let's fac it, years ago could you go into a drug or grocery store to smell a scent of a shaving cream? Of course not.

MpMinNY said:

I do not think the dearth of easy availability at the local drugstore will determine the future of classic wet shaving. I do believe the Internet will.

Availability through on-line purchasing, combined with what I believe to be a suicidal move to add more blades (and COST) to carts, could (not will... I'm predicting the future here), lead to significant growth in the classic shaving marketplace. There I go with wishful thinking again.

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And technically barbers do use traditional shaving supplies such as blades, shaving creams and aftershaves.

HEB stores are handling Van Der Han products including their blades.

I doubt it'll ever become very popular where it becomes well known. This is one of those niche activities that a devoted few revel in, but the majority will never bother with it. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

I get everything online except my VDH soap which I get at CVS for $2.37 per puck. Aftershaves I get at CVS or Walmart (Aqua Velva, Barbasol, etc)

Limited time to reply.

1. There is a market for men who are tired of buying expensive cartridges. Gillette has lost significant market share to the upstart discount cartridge companies. Once people disconnect from Gillette cartridges, some will migrate to DE.
2. The mens' grooming business as a whole is growing rapidly. Men's Spas that provide for high end haircuts, manicures, coloring and straight edge shaving. It's a $75 to $100 dollar experience and it's thriving in high income cities.
3. Traditional sharing will continue to grow with the retiring U.S. boomers. Traditional shaving takes time; something retirees have. For retirees with discretionary income, it's a comparatively inexpensive hobby.
4. The internet is the primary source of product for a lot of hobbies. Nothing wrong there. Larger cities have their brick and mortar locations, many of which are e-tailers themselves.
5. Wegman's is a Rochester based grocery chain. Their upstate NY stores carry basic traditional shaving supplies.
6. So there are factors that trend towards a growth opportunity; albeit not transformative growth.

For the B&M issue alone, there are 9 Art of Shaving stores in DC and nearby Maryland and Virginia. And doesn't Grooming Lounge have 2 stores? I live on Long Island, there are 2 dozen AoS stores and independent B&M stores in 100 miles radius. Even Iowa and Idaho have one. Bed, Bath and Beyond is a vendor. And others above have mentioned other vendors.

Not to prove that you're wrong, only that a little googling may have more results than you might guess.

But the online options are limitless.

I live in a village of 5000 people in the U.S. One of the two pharmacies has DE blades...CVS at $7.50 for 10. The Dollar Store has Dorcos for $1 for then. The other pharmacy stocks Williams. The only grocery store stocks Williams as well.

The pharmacy near where I work in a City of 50,000 people, 25 miles away, is locally owned, and carries Williams, German Wilkinsons, and GEM Blue Star SE blades.

None of them stock any razors, other than the new modern sorts, all cartridges, swively things and plastics. There is a Walmart 10 miles away which supposedly sells VDH and the MicroOneTouch, but I cannot verify that as I do not do business with them.

However, this is a vast improvement over 5 years ago, when none of that was available locally at all.

Of the 30 guys I work with, two of us use DE.

My very rough guess is that market penetration might be about 1%.

AbbyW2 said:

For the B&M issue alone, there are 9 Art of Shaving stores in DC and nearby Maryland and Virginia. And doesn't Grooming Lounge have 2 stores? I live on Long Island, there are 2 dozen AoS stores and independent B&M stores in 100 miles radius. Even Iowa and Idaho have one. Bed, Bath and Beyond is a vendor. And others above have mentioned other vendors.

Not to prove that you're wrong, only that a little googling may have more results than you might guess.

But the online options are limitless.

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Tysons Galleria and L street for the Grooming Lounge

If you're anywhere near Greenbelt, Kensington or River Belt farmers markets in spring through fall you can sniff Mystic Water soaps to your heart's content....

AbbyW2 said:

For the B&M issue alone, there are 9 Art of Shaving stores in DC and nearby Maryland and Virginia. And doesn't Grooming Lounge have 2 stores? I live on Long Island, there are 2 dozen AoS stores and independent B&M stores in 100 miles radius. Even Iowa and Idaho have one. Bed, Bath and Beyond is a vendor. And others above have mentioned other vendors.

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Post #15, I already went over this but will repeat

"The only store I know of is the Grooming Lounge and that is maybe 60 miles away. It carries a handful of brushes, a lot of razors, but their focus is ADP and its more a place, that I can see, to drop $130 - $300 for a haircut/shave with packages like The Potomac, The Congressman, The Hill, etc. Other than that I know of know real store others than the major ones like Pasteur in NYC, Superior Shave in FL, Q brothers in Chicago, Maggards, Old Town Shaving in CA, Royal Shave. ... Looking at the wiki http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/Shopping_by_Country I see nothing mentioned in many states like NC, NJ, MD, DE."

This isn't about me. I should never have mentioned the lack of stores. The question is the future.. Where is the industry going. Forget about the stores. If you want to go to BBB or Walmart to pick up stuff, that's great. I'm looking for a Maggards, Superior Shave, Q brothers, etc.

Haggises said:

If you're anywhere near Greenbelt, Kensington or River Belt farmers markets in spring through fall you can sniff Mystic Water soaps to your heart's content....

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Been there, done that, great stuff. Michelle makes, IMO, a great product and some of her scents are good enough to eat. Her Gingered Cranberry Pear is a fantastic Holiday scent with great after face feel (or whatever its called).

This are very good points that need to be addressed separately as they pertain to overall market penetration, which is the point of this thread. After all, I'm looking for the considered opinion of the members.

bigred80 said:

1. There is a market for men who are tired of buying expensive cartridges. Gillette has lost significant market share to the upstart discount cartridge companies. Once people disconnect from Gillette cartridges, some will migrate to DE.

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OK, your saying that those fed up with paying high prices with Gillette will migrate to say for example Harrys. But some will also go to DEs. Sure. Isn't that happening now? But won't the masses just go to cheaper cartridges?

bigred80 said:

2. The mens' grooming business as a whole is growing rapidly. Men's Spas that provide for high end haircuts, manicures, coloring and straight edge shaving. It's a $75 to $100 dollar experience and it's thriving in high income cities.

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Grooming Lounge offers a $300 package. AOS sells $100 or so packages. But what has this got to do with changing one's every day routine life style? Not sure how this ties in.

bigred80 said:

3. Traditional sharing will continue to grow with the retiring U.S. boomers. Traditional shaving takes time; something retirees have. For retirees with discretionary income, it's a comparatively inexpensive hobby.

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Agreed. As the older baby boomers retire, that is those born between 1946 and say 1955, they were teenagers prior to the death of the traditional wet shaving with the 1971 introduction of cartridges and then disposables. Its possible they might have some nostalgia and think about how things were done when they were a teenager. I would not discount the fact that retirement means free time that people who are working simply do not.

I would also not discount that that this is a cheap hobby. Your talking soap here, and despite the penchant for some to acquire 100 soaps and 50 brushes (or however many people buy) even in the most extreme cases your talking maybe $3 - 6K in costs? That's a far cry from those who hobby might be fixing their boats, tracking their cars, playing golf at the club everyday, or traveling extensively.

I would not discount the spending power of retiring baby boomers with time on their hands.

For the younger baby boomers, those born up to 1960, I doubt this will hold much sway. They probably started with those blue disposables and trak II cartridges and never looked back.

bigred80 said:

4. The internet is the primary source of product for a lot of hobbies. Nothing wrong there. Larger cities have their brick and mortar locations, many of which are e-tailers themselves.

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OK

bigred80 said:

5. Wegman's is a Rochester based grocery chain. Their upstate NY stores carry basic traditional shaving supplies.

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Check their app. Nothing listed for here. Maybe in NY.

bigred80 said:

6. So there are factors that trend towards a growth opportunity; albeit not transformative growth.

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OK, except for the older baby boomers. They have money. If they are truly retired and prepared for retirement. They do have the time and they do have the money. And that is probably a very strong and potential market. If I were selling stuff into this market, I might want to increase market penetration by catering to that money vice the younger crowd who think a three day stubble is "cool". Its a good point you made.

It's fair to note that there is a generalized sea-change in society, though. People are trying to minimize their environmental footprint, and do not want disposables as much as they did, say, 30 years ago. What is driving the revival of some of the older technologies isn't simple nostalgia, but rather than they are both cheaper and environmentally more sound. How many people have given up their fancy percolators or Gevalia machines or Kuerigs and have gone back to the basic old simple French Press?

More and more people are buying their food directly from the farmer, at a Farmer's market or with a CSA.

More and more people are starting to go to diners or locally owned cafes rather than McDonalds or Applebees.

In a world going topsy-turvy, people are getting tired of buying stuff, throwing it out, and buying again, and more and more want things what will last.

This shared thing of ours here is growing, me thinks, largely as a piece of that larger trend, and will continue to go so, because that large trend is growing.

Re men's spas, my experience there with a straight razor, hot towel, quality soap, etc. prompted me convert to DE shaving. Traditional shaves from salons are an effective way to introduce men to a better shaving routine.

Re Wegmans, yes to product in the larger NY stores. Their customer service departments are pretty responsive to requests. Explains why they are the highest rated grocery chain in the country.

I'm 58 and never used a DE until I was 54. One of my razors belonged to my uncle. For me, the nostalgia is a slice of life from my dad and his dad. My dad passed away last year. Returning to his ways helps me stay in touch. Perhaps this thought resonates with my age peers.

I have no idea where this whole thread is going, other than down yet another rambling rabbit warren. However, I must say that neither I nor anyone else has the slightest idea what sort of market penetration will result. Frankly, I see this (as OP has described) as something more of a niche market. I don't see a future with supermarkets lining up triple-milled soaps and fine creams lined up on shelves like Edge gel and Barbasol. Maybe we'll see a wider DE blade selection, but I don't know. Really, with all the newer, artisan makers out there marketing directly to the public, I can hardly imagine how any b&m store could handle stocking everything under the Sun.

Really, the whole idea of anything other than a high-end or specialty store with a maddening selection of soaps, creams, brushes, etc. is somewhat absurd. With online shopping, it will be hard to see community stores along the lines of Maggard's, Bull Goose, West Coast Shaving, etc. in very many communities. The whole idea of shopping has changed. While some, like OP, would like a store where one could handle each and every Simpson brush, so many more would rather ask about it in a forum such as this one and then save some bucks.

All that said, one never knows. Fifteen years ago, hardly anyone in the U.S. knew (or, at least, cared) anything about beer outside of the BudMillerCoors stuff and the occasional, skunked import. The thought of a bar with over 100 taps and 200 bottle selections was little more than science fiction. Now, "craft beer" and "craft brewing" are growing like mad, and any decent "good beer bar" in the U.S. almost doesn't make the cut without at least 30 or 40 taps, and 100 isn't all that big of a deal. It's still a "specialty store" idea, and it likely always will be, but it's not something hard to find. Some beers that were absolutely revolutionary twenty or thirty years ago are darn near becoming what one might call mainstream, available in just about every supermarket I walk in to.

Perhaps, maybe, someday, shaving will get there, too.