Do you use toe-leading x-strokes on a coti?

Zach · Nov 28, 2015

Do you hone with toe-leading x-strokes? If so, how do you incorporate them into your process? Do you alternate heel and toe-leading with a stroke-count? Do you employ them more just after setting the bevel or near the end on a touchup?

I ask because ever since I messed up the bevel on my very first straight a whole year ago, I was advised to alternate 5 heel-leading x-strokes and 5 toe-leading. This makes sense to me when I think about the shuffled scratch-pattern that makes that nice coti edge, but google tells me that not too many folks are doing it. 5 heel-leading and 5 toe leading (with less pressure) worked for me and Ive been doing it ever since, but the other day I was honing up my PRC hydra and decided to just finish with a bunch of standard heel-leading strokes, and it suddenly went from not passing my standard AHT to pinging and popping those hairs right off!

What do you think?

Gamma · Nov 28, 2015

I think you should keep doing what's working best and not worry so much about what Google search returns might indicate.

kcb5150 · Nov 28, 2015

I have done toe leading with certain blades, but I don't count laps

Brianskeet · Nov 28, 2015

I am a heel leading only guy, but must admit that I have zero reason for this other than habit. Now I will use half X's and circles at times, but if I am doing X strokes I am heel leading.

Zach · Nov 28, 2015

Gamma said:
I think you should keep doing what's working best and not worry so much about what Google search returns might indicate.

It’s weird; for most of life I don’t, but with shave stuff I like to know that I’m on the same path as others for some reason. It’s been that way since the beginning of my shave journey.

Zach · Nov 28, 2015

kcb5150 said:
I have done toe leading with certain blades, but I don't count laps

Do the blades you toe-lead with have anything in common, like hollowing? My PRC razor is the one quarter hollow I own, and I admit I've had a little more trouble getting what I call a nice edge on it, but finishing with those heel-leading x-strokes helped! Maybe I'm just trying to figure out why it did in that situation.

Slash McCoy · Nov 28, 2015

I heel lead, with a slight x stroke unless I have reason to do otherwise. I do vary the heel leading angle, though. I dont think I have ever honed toe leading.

Alum of Potash · Nov 28, 2015

Perhaps circle-strokes would achieve the same end? Circles leading to straight X-strokes towards the finish? Circles at the start are more or less 50/50 toe-leading. The only time I use a dedicated toe-leading pass is to briefly knock off some kind of burr there. This applies to any stone I may be using, not just coticules.

If you're having trouble nailing the toe in general, it may be time to think about how you are holding the razor while honing. Are you using one hand or two, and so on. I use one hand, the stone being held with my off-hand. At the end, I often like laterally-biased passes, gripping the shank of the razor from side to side, as I would while stropping. That normally nails the toe. The cost can be a burr at the very tip of the razor, from which a few toe-leading strokes will knock this off. But that is all as to dedicated toe-leading. Heel to toe is the way I was shown, and the way I essentially follow.

kcb5150 · Nov 29, 2015

Actually, I've only done it with old English blades that were very wonky as a bit of a nuclear option. Not constant either, mixing them into typical rolling x. You really need to be careful toe leading or you can create new problems for yourself. I would not do it with anything that has flex at all.

Gamma · Nov 29, 2015

Zach said:
It’s weird; for most of life I don’t, but with shave stuff I like to know that I’m on the same path as others for some reason. It’s been that way since the beginning of my shave journey.

Everyone can choose whichever path they like...and there are many to choose from.
As it's been said - 'There are many paths to the top of the mountain'.
As long as you're shaving well, you are on the same path as everyone else that's shaving well.

Zach · Nov 29, 2015

Alum of Potash said:
Perhaps circle-strokes would achieve the same end? Circles leading to straight X-strokes towards the finish? Circles at the start are more or less 50/50 toe-leading. The only time I use a dedicated toe-leading pass is to briefly knock off some kind of burr there. This applies to any stone I may be using, not just coticules.

If you're having trouble nailing the toe in general, it may be time to think about how you are holding the razor while honing. Are you using one hand or two, and so on. I use one hand, the stone being held with my off-hand. At the end, I often like laterally-biased passes, gripping the shank of the razor from side to side, as I would while stropping. That normally nails the toe. The cost can be a burr at the very tip of the razor, from which a few toe-leading strokes will knock this off. But that is all as to dedicated toe-leading. Heel to toe is the way I was shown, and the way I essentially follow.

I always feel like I’m going to mess something up with circle strokes, so I haven’t really done them yet. I have thought about the fact that I’m accomplishing the same thing as circles with toe-leading as both processes would seem to put scratches in both directions on the blade, (scratches in the direction of the heel and toe.) Am I correct that you can’t really put a burr on a blade / otherwise over-hone it with a coticule as long as your bevel is symmetrical to start with and you use a symmetrical number of x-strokes on each side of the bevel? Thanks for giving me something else to worry about!

Zach · Nov 29, 2015

kcb5150 said:
Actually, I've only done it with old English blades that were very wonky as a bit of a nuclear option. Not constant either, mixing them into typical rolling x. You really need to be careful toe leading or you can create new problems for yourself. I would not do it with anything that has flex at all.

Interesting. I can see where if you don’t make sure spine is / is going to be flush with hone at the beginning of the stroke you could really mess things up. The majority of the times I’ve done it have been with full hollows. I always use light to minimal pressure. Maybe I’ll stay away from this for now with my extra-full-hollow Silver steel which I haven’t yet needed to hone!

Zach · Nov 29, 2015

Slash McCoy said:
I heel lead, with a slight x stroke unless I have reason to do otherwise. I do vary the heel leading angle, though. I dont think I have ever honed toe leading.

I vary my angle too, especially on my smaller coti.

Zach · Nov 29, 2015

By the way, I usually hone two hands to insure that an even amount of pressure gets exerted along the blade and that spine is always in contact with hone. I think I go slower than most because a screwup the first time I tried honing made me really paranoid about spine touching and equal pressure. Ive tried holding the stone in my off-hand, but Im not yet cool enough to pull that off without feeling like Im going to cut my fingertips, lift spine or apply uneven pressure.

Slash McCoy · Nov 29, 2015

Zach said:
By the way, I usually hone two hands to insure that an even amount of pressure gets exerted along the blade and that spine is always in contact with hone. I think I go slower than most because a screwup the first time I tried honing made me really paranoid about spine touching and equal pressure. I’ve tried holding the stone in my off-hand, but I’m not yet cool enough to pull that off without feeling like I’m going to cut my fingertips, lift spine or apply uneven pressure.

Your pressure is more even if you hold the home in your off hand, so blade and hone find their own natural alignment.

Alum of Potash · Nov 29, 2015

Zach said:
I always feel like I’m going to mess something up with circle strokes, so I haven’t really done them yet. I have thought about the fact that I’m accomplishing the same thing as circles with toe-leading as both processes would seem to put scratches in both directions on the blade, (scratches in the direction of the heel and toe.) Am I correct that you can’t really put a burr on a blade / otherwise over-hone it with a coticule as long as your bevel is symmetrical to start with and you use a symmetrical number of x-strokes on each side of the bevel? Thanks for giving me something else to worry about!

I was referring to a laterally-biassed stroke where the toe comes off the side of the stone. Actually, more of a rolled tip than a burr, I guess. Sorry, my wording was off.

Zach · Nov 29, 2015

Alum of Potash said:
I was referring to a laterally-biassed stroke where the toe comes off the side of the stone. Actually, more of a rolled tip than a burr, I guess. Sorry, my wording was off.

Ha! I'm so not there yet! My toe-leading strokes are just heel-leading x-strokes in reverse; nothing fancy or fast enough to roll the tip.

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