J-nat, Coticule or Thoringian

I'm thinking I need a harder "natural" stone. Only have 2 course Atomas and 800 - 12,000 Naniwas right now. Which natural should I be looking for and why? Japanese, Belgian or German.

My straights consist of a Thiers, Dovo, Pickslay, 2 ebay finds that are unidentifiable and a Dorko that is on its way.

I would ask Alex Gilmore for a j nat , reason being there easier to use and Alex can pick you a hard 5 plus in hardness. Escher would nice but Escher are expensive. Coticules are great but there seems to be a lot of softer ones out there at the moment.

so yes I,d recommend a nice j nat

Actually i think its a factor of personal preference and a big factor how big your amount you want to invest is....

Thuris, Gary mentioned the price...arent that more expensive then any other Jnat or Coticule....

Sure you wont get a labelled Escher for cheap but you get some nice Bouts or smaller sizes to work with around 70-130€...sure no Bench stone. You can ask Hatzicho for those..

Also Coticules in a good working size (around 15cm) will be around 100€ or above...

Same is with Jnats, there are some beginners stones in Terms of Price values which you can get quite cheap (fex. Wakasa, Shobudani, Ozuku)...
Many other Jnats in bigger sizes and other qualities will be a good step above 100€.

In the End you have to made a decision first, you can only evaluate what suits you the best when you tested out whats around there.....if you get a chance to ask someone for testing stones that would be a good way to start...

I often do/offer these exchanges here in germany, which really helps the people to find out what they like the most on the first step.

I have not used one but many like the Apache for its' ease of use and great finish. Search around here. Lots of discussion late last year.

Absolutely a big personal preference factor on this subject. Here is my take on what is commonly thought about the stones you mention, but it is important to remember than these are natural stones and as such any one rock can jump well outside of these thoughts.

Jnat - capable of achieving the keenest edge among the naturals. Moderate learning curve. Generally more pricey and a somewhat more complicated taxonomy to learn. Arguably the most beautiful of natural hones.

Escher/Thuringian - good keen edge and the easiest of the naturals to learn. Their ease of use combined with their history has made labeled Escher hone prices skyrocket.

Coticule - The very best of coticule edges come with a higher learning curve, but once learned they give a very skin friendly edge. Somewhat less expensive per square inch of hone.

Now like I said these are not rules, just the common thoughts on what can be an endlessly variable and fascinating subject.

Yes you can pick up a. Ice 5 X1 thury next to nothing if you check out at eBay . Is there any reason your not happy with your 12 k naniwas?

gary

Although a newbe with straight razors and the art and science of producing the keenest and smoothest of edges on them. I have a long history of machining, heat treating, grinding, lapping and polishing of high carbon steels.

Would like to stay below $150.00 on a natural stone, which is why I didn't include Eschers in my inquiry.
Was hoping to end up with something in the neighborhood of 70mm X 140mm.

Which of the stones have the greatest probability of being a fairly fast stone with a good slurry, but at the same time a good finisher with water/glycerin.

You can get coticules that cut real fast with slurry and finish well with water. I no that for sure as I use one regular.

gary haywood said:

Yes you can pick up a. Ice 5 X1 thury next to nothing if you check out at eBay . Is there any reason your not happy with your 12 k naniwas?

gary

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Seems a bit soft.

Although a long, long way from perfect, I'm a bit of a perfectionist. I'm never completely and unconditionally satisfied with any project that I finish. I do enjoy a feeling of satisfaction, but always looking to improve the outcome of the next effort.

you should send a razor to doc and let him pop you a j nat edge on your razor. See what you think? Go from there. The size you want is very popular size in the j nats.

I don't think hardness quantifies or qualifies one type of finisher as being better/higher or lower than another.
You may find it to be true within a certain breed, but comparing a soft Nani to a hard Thuri and saying/thinking the Thuri is going to be better because it's harder is somewhat off-track.

I will say this though - I'll like a Thuri edge I hone better than a 12k Nani edge I hone most of the time, but the stone's hardness isn't the reason why.

Most people will find Thuris/Eschers easier to finish on than many other Natural hones - in a general sense.
Cotis can be the most challenging sometimes, but not always. Depends on the stone and the user. Contrary to popular belief, there's no way to determine this beforehand. You gotta climb in the ring to find out.
Jnats run the gamut from soft to hard and in varying degrees of each level. They do not have to cost more or less than another type of hone, although you may find that cheap stones are what they are - cheap stones. It all depends on the stone in question. Whether or not they are more or less capbable of delivering the keenest edges is a debate for the ages but I do think this.... if you manage to find a good Jnat, you can probably hit 'it' fairly quickly. Not everyone does, but the majority seem to. Always remember though - someone else's success might not be up to snuff for you, so there's that.

What you should be looking for.
Well - everyone will see this differently but the answer to your quandary might not come from throwing money at the issue.
Sometimes, it's not about buying a 'better' stone - often, it's more about learning to hone better with the stones you already own.

As for fast/slow, good slurry or good with water/glycerin - not sure why or how those qualities would factor into the equation.
There are good finishers that are slow, that don't slurry well and would never really need a water/glycerine mix to hone on.
You don't 'always' need slurry or a special honing medium - depends on the stone.
Some stones are faster, and they do slurry well, but can be used with whatever medium you prefer.

Is there any reason you don't have Arkansas stones listed? They are slow, but provide a very nice edge, and just get better with use. If you have a good maxed out 12K edge, jumping to a Translucent Ark (or comparable Hard Black Ark) should be pretty easy. I find them easy to use, no slurry, and I use water on my finishers. The only drawback to me is getting them flat (they are HARD stones) and getting them broken in (after flattening, it takes some time to smooth the stone).

I have a couple Cotis, and when I get them to give a good edge, boy do they give a great edge! When I miss, boy do I miss... A lot of this is because I am not very good with narrow (1") stones.

Lots of variables to consider. As has been said, just find something that sounds good, and give it a try.

Thanks for the info. I'm at a complete loss as far as how or what to look for when selecting a natural stone.

Because I don't foresee ever owning more than 2 natural stones, I was hoping for at least one to be a little bit of a "jack of all trades" (starter and finisher).

Main reason I'm hoping for a stone that can start out somewhat fast but still (if I do my part) perform as a reasonable finisher is I have trouble with arthritis in my wrists and hands resulting from injuries suffered from a rather adventurous life when younger.

I'm a bit of a tool junkie and have always tried to buy the right tool for the job, but retirement demands a bit of frugality now.

I do in fact have a black Norton hard Arkansas (about 2" X 6") that has for the last 40 years been relegated to service in the machine shop. It's very fine and pretty flat and likely could, if needed, be dressed with some 1000 wet-or-dry on my granite surface plate.

Again, I very much appreciate the generosity, the PIF attitude that all have exhibited with their hard earned knowledge and experience.

A black hard Norton is one HELL of a finisher, and if it's hard you're after, you've got it. With a full set of nani's and a black ark you should be able to turn out some smoking edges. I understand the urge to want to go forward and try new stones but I think you might be better off in the long run to spend some time and really learn to max out what you have. Just my opinion.

fuzzymuzzle said:

I do in fact have a black Norton hard Arkansas (about 2" X 6") that has for the last 40 years been relegated to service in the machine shop. It's very fine and pretty flat and likely could, if needed, be dressed with some 1000 wet-or-dry on my granite surface plate.

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Give it a go as is. No point in resurfacing it if it's flat. People look long and hard for a good Hard Arkansas to use with razors. In this case you may already own the right tool for the job...

I have an Okudo Asagi coming from Alex and he is a SUPER guy to work with, we spent some time on the phone discussing my needs and then he made the suggestion of the Asagi so that will round out my stones of sythenetics from 1-16K then a few coticules and an Apache, the reason for the JNAT was I had Alfredo work his magic with some custom scales and I got a JNAT taste, I'm sure I won't be able to replicate the edges he does but I need to have a goal to work towards.

You can send a shaver toJarrod at TSS and he will put a coticule edge on for free and if you like the edge you can also buy a stone from him, also Alex has a pretty liberal policy on his stones, heck he even made me a personalized video with the stone I am getting with a similar razor I will be using to show what it's caple up.

As far as edges go they all have somthing different to offer, sythenetics have always given me a super edge, coticules seem to provide me with a softer edge and the JNAT edge is super keen and beyond what I can get from the sythentic stones I have at least for me, the Apache is a fine finisher and I usually use my Atoma 400 to work up a super light slurry and then do 20-30 super light laps on that then water coming off the 16K shapton and he seems to soften up and smooth out the edge.

I would say pick one of the 3 and learn what you can do with it.

PapaFish said:

Give it a go as is. No point in resurfacing it if it's flat. People look long and hard for a good Hard Arkansas to use with razors. In this case you may already own the right tool for the job...

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Agreed^^^

Dcaddo111 said:

I understand the urge to want to go forward and try new stones but I think you might be better off in the long run to spend some time and really learn to max out what you have. Just my opinion.

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^ this

You can't possibly know what you want, until you know exactly what you have.

So here's the black hard Arkansas. 50mm X 150mm. Thinking of using a mixture of Klean Heat and baby oil for honing.
Opinions?

Baby oil is usually just mineral oil and fragrance. I use mineral oil on my lower grit Arkansas stones with no issues. You should be fine with what you suggest, otherwise lots of us just use water.

Nice stone by the way! I would be proud to have one like that in my collection.