Frustrated by Boar brush - need advice.

I've been breaking in a semogue 1305 for at least 40 shaves.
It seems like it should be fully broken in.
The backbone is no longer so stiff it flicks lather all over the mirror, it's now nicely flexible but still scrubby.
The brush is fully bloomed looking all the time.
The tips are very soft.
Almost all the tips are split. About 1/3 are split into 2 tips. About 15% are split into 3 tips.

I soak soak the brush for 10 minutes in warm water while I shower.
I only lightly shake the water out before loading.
I load the brush for a full 60 seconds on VDH luxury (white puck with 10% glycerin).
I add water onto the tips 2 times during loading. It seems to help the brush pick up more soap.

After loading, I get very luxurious creamy lather quickly --- that is just like the lather from my plisson synthetic.
But I lather for 60 seconds anyways to ensure the soap and water and air are thoroughly converted to lather.

BUT --- the lather for my second pass is thin...
So I always have to reload. I find it takes 25 seconds of loading to get lather as good as the first pass.


And the third pass is worse. I have to load for another 35-40 seconds to get great lather again.

I'm thinking this is adding too much time and frustration to my morning routine.
But before I give up on boars, I want to double check a few things...

QUESTIONS:
Is this the typical behavior of a boar brush ?
Is it just not broken in yet ?
If so, any idea how broken in it is ? I.e. 50%, 15-20 more shaves needed, etc.
Is there something wrong with my technique ?

Does this happen with other soaps too?

Yes - I get the same behavior with Cella soap and Poraso cream.

Ps: the VDH luxury seems to work a little better than Cella and Poraso in terms of making a very lubricating lather (and it probably should - it costs 25% more than Cella). It's a much different soap than VDH deluxe (the small pink puck).

Do you need as heavy of a lather for the second+ pass? I find that the first pass needs the heavy, rich lather to soften the beard, but the 2+ pass(es) need the lubrication of a thin wet lather more than beard prep, since there is much less beard to hold lather, and the beard is prepared already anyways.

I use an Omega Bambino as my travel brush and find it has plenty of capacity for 2 passes, the second is much less heavy than the first, which is fine for me. There is enough for a touch up pass too, but if I need more than a spot I reload a little. My other Omega boar brush is a long handle monster and also has less lather for the second (and third, and maybe fourth with touch-up) pass.

My regular shave brush is a large super badger, and I get similar tapering of lather between passes, but not as fast as the boar. I think this is because the badger hair is much finer, so there is more surface to hold onto the soap.

My typical soaps are Arko and Cade.

Phil

I'll second the lather being thinner for the second pass. You really only need that little bit to let the razor glide. I also have a Bambino, and it has no problem at just 18mm's holding about three passes worth. If your second pass has the lather way too thin, perhaps just a bit to much water is going in the lather at the start?

That sounds pretty normal to me.

As I said in another post today about a similar problem, there's no harm in going back to the puck for more product.

Pkrankow said:

Do you need as heavy of a lather for the second+ pass? I find that the first pass needs the heavy, rich lather to soften the beard, but the 2+ pass(es) need the lubrication of a thin wet lather more than beard prep, since there is much less beard to hold lather, and the beard is prepared already anyways.

I use an Omega Bambino as my travel brush and find it has plenty of capacity for 2 passes, the second is much less heavy than the first, which is fine for me. There is enough for a touch up pass too, but if I need more than a spot I reload a little. My other Omega boar brush is a long handle monster and also has less lather for the second (and third, and maybe fourth with touch-up) pass.

My regular shave brush is a large super badger, and I get similar tapering of lather between passes, but not as fast as the boar. I think this is because the badger hair is much finer, so there is more surface to hold onto the soap.

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Cash_Stronomer said:

I'll second the lather being thinner for the second pass. You really only need that little bit to let the razor glide. I also have a Bambino, and it has no problem at just 18mm's holding about three passes worth. If your second pass has the lather way too thin, perhaps just a bit to much water is going in the lather at the start?

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I agree with the above. The 2nd and 3rd pass for me never need to be thick with mass amounts of lather. In actual fact, i find all my brushes do exactly as you said, EXCEPT with my synthetics...which feel like they could infinitely lather (or so it seems)...but all my boards and badgers have similar behaviour. The 2nd and 3rd pass can have thinner lather, the Italian barbers also do this. The bulk is removed in the 1st pass, and the the 2nd and subsequent passes just need that glide. Just my 2 cents.

Why do you reload the brush for each pass? I almost never have to reload, no matter what brush or soap I'm using.

When I had a 1305, it held enough lather for 3 full passes with plenty left over for touch-ups.

It may be that the lather is disappearing into the breach of the knot. Just give it a gentle squeeze from the bottom to bring it out to the tips, and then apply it to your face.

And how is your water? If you're dealing with hard water, this could be the source of your lathering problem(s). Get some distilled water at the supermarket and try that to see if it makes a difference.

To me it sounds like you are are not wringing the brush out enough, like your water to soap ratio is off. This is why you need to reload to get that perfect ratio.

I have a semogue 620 that I use right now as my go to brush. When I go to shave, I wring it out pretty good only leaving a little bit of water and add water to the brush as I build my lather.

Try wringing it out more and adding water as you build your lather as you feel necessary.

I have the same brush and haven't noticed these technical difficulties. I rarely need to reload for the second and third passes.
Yours may not be fully broken yet, they do take a long time to achieve optimal performance. Mine is not there yet.

Thanks everyone.
My lather does taper off between passes with my silvertip and synthetic too - but with the boar its way way way more pronounced.
If I don't reload for the second pass, the lather looks like suds, and the razor doesn't have a "slick" feeling when it glides across my skin. It's not quite like only shaving with water - but it is about half way there...

I'll try shaking the water out of the brush before I load. I'm leaving the brush very wet (Marco method). I'm also adding water during the loading process. Maybe I'm just making lather on top of the soap instead of actually loading the brush.

Also, my brush does look about like the brush in the pic above that "isn't quite there yet" in the break in cycle. When the brush is fully broken in, will the lather for the second and third pass be like my silvertip (without reloading) ?

Also will I always have to load the boar much longer than with my silvertip - or does this go away too after its broken in ?

I concur with the opinions that second and consecutive lathers do not need to be as thick as the first. However, I have had similar issues with my Semogue 1800. After the first pass - usually fine lather - there simply wasn't even a usable amount of lather left in the brush. Not even at thin slick layer - just a little amount of over watery sud.

I felt disappointed because I had used it so many times it should have broken in (and provide adequate lather). I tried wet-dry soaks every 2 days (no use of the brush for shaving) for 2-3 weeks. Did not really help. I was considering selling / piffing it, but I did not want to give up (after all the Semogue praise!). I continued lathering it with palm lathers - 2-3 times a week and after a while noticed it would hold more lather. At some point I tested it for a shave and it was so much better - almost 3 perfect passes of lather. No it holds those 3 comfortably, even with some left. So in the end it was about perseverance and it paid off.

Short conclusion: give it more time, lathers, soap and water. It will reward at some point. If it is hindering your shave, pick another brush to shave and just hand-lather it for a while.

I tried shaking most of the water out of the brush before loading on my last shave.

Unfotunately, it had no effect on the poor 2nd pass lather.

Maybe it's just not broken in yet --- It's only been a few months...

Personally, I find different brushes work better or worse on different products. When I use my Semogue 1800 on soft soaps, I have the same issue of thin lather for subsequent passes. However, the 1800 rocks creams and does pretty good on Stirling soaps. For Cella, Proraso, and other croaps, I like a big boar like the Omega Pro 48 or Semogue 2000. No thin wimpy lather with those big boys. For harder soaps and sticks, a shorter, scrubbier brush like the Omega 10065 or Semogue 620 does the trick.

Seems like soap, not brush; but it's a troubleshooting triangle: soap/water, brush, technique.

Patience & more time/work this morning turned foam/foamy bubbles (unacceptable) into three-pass lather mound(s).


AA

I like to not over think a lot of little problems and try to forget about them, then one day you accidentally get it right, and it feels awesome!

JohnG10 said:

...Maybe I'm just making lather on top of the soap instead of actually loading the brush...

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^^ This sounds like part of it to me. If you don't already, try pouring some hot water on top of the soap to soften it up while you soak your brush (5-10 min). Also try loading more product initially. I use more soap with my 1305 than I do with my synthetic for sure.

JohnG10 said:

I've been breaking in a semogue 1305 for at least 40 shaves.
It seems like it should be fully broken in.....Is it just not broken in yet ?

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IMHO, it's not fully broken in yet. Give it at least six months of lathering every 2 or 3 days, then you'll start to see what "broken in" for a Semogue boar is like (which is most excellent, BTW). But everyone's definition of "broken in" will be different - YMMV, of course.

If you have just a couple of minutes, watch this video. Works great with any type of brush.

http://youtu.be/hcJA9ZMaphA

My Semogue had about 2 or 3 months of daily shaves before it got there. Once it makes it though, breaks in and opens up, wonderful brush!