So I've been really thinking about getting into straits and I am trying to gather all the knowledge I can before I dive in, so I've read the when honing people put tape on the spine I'm sure this is to protect it, but I am wondering how much tape to put and what kind and if it is alway necessary?
tape on the spine
- Thread starter hahnevince559
- Start date
Depends if its a angle issue or just saving a nice spine from hone wear.
You dont need to, some prefer not to. 3m 77 tape iirc works ok. Some choose different thickness depending on geometry
You dont need to, some prefer not to. 3m 77 tape iirc works ok. Some choose different thickness depending on geometry
Tape protects the spine and increases the bevel angle. If I want to do either of these, I will use tape. Mostly I hone without it.
Electrical tape is what is normally used.
- Thread starter
- #4
OK cool that's what I was also wondering if there was a magic number of peices to get the best angle ?
Ideal angle on 99.999% of razors is no layers. But you may want to increase the angle of a razor because you'd prefer it to be less acute, then you could use tape. Typically it's done to protect the spine from wear/loss of aesthetics and the widening of the angle is an accepted trade-off.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
The best bevel angle for a particular razor is usually the one it was made with. But if you want to experiment, by all means. But first, you should probably want to know exactly what the bevel angle already is. Changing the bevel angle from one unknown angle to another unknown angle seems rather silly to me.
To measure the bevel angle, first consider the bevel. It is a bilaterally symmetrical angle. It can be regarded as the apex of an isoceles triangle. An isoceles traiangle can be bisected into two right triangles. Calculating the acute (or the obtuse, either one!) angle of a right triangle is trivial. The formula to use here is S = O/H. The Sine of the angle = the Opposite side / Hypotenuse. The corner between the Opposite side and the Hypotenuse is the top edge of the hone wear stripe on the spine. The acute angle corner is at the edge. The right angle is in the middle of the spine and inaccessible. The Opposite side is half the thickness of the spine. The hypotenuse is the distance between the edge, and the top edge of the hone wear stip on the spine. Measure, then divide to find the Sine of the angle. Find the angle for that Sine. Double it, and you have your bevel angle. Dont forget to include the thickness of your tape, in calculating the modified bevel.
Okay, so you now know how to change the bevel angle by adding tape. But there are problems with this. First of all, if you hone with tape, the spine does not wear. However, the edge does wear. That is the whole point of honing. Now if the edge wears away and makes the blade narrower, but the spine does not wear and so the spine never grows thinner, eventually what happens to the bevel angle? Sure, it takes a while for taped honing to have a cumulative effect, but what is "a while", when the razor could easily last a couple hundred years? So you cause the bevel angle to get more obtuse, over years and years, but for what reason? It is rare to find a razor that has too acute a bevel angle due to honing. Honing with tape now has a certain effect now. Honing with tape on a regular basis has both the immediate and also the cumulative effect.
Another problem with taped honing is if you use an abrasive loaded strop, you kinda need to tape the blade exactly the same for stropping. Otherwise, the edge does not actually contact the strop or hone.
Another problem is with multiple layers, there is a compressibility issue. A slight change in pressure can significantly change immediate bevel angle. Plus, as the tape wears on the hone, the bevel angle is changing.
There are some legitimate reasons to hone with tape. For instance, when honing a full wedge. Or to apply a compound bevel. Or for that rare razor that for whatever reason has an extremely acute bevel. Otherwise, I don't think it is a good idea at all. Think about what you are doing, instead of just doing it.
However, it is your razor and you have every right to hone however you like, on whatever you like, I have every right to glue sod to the outside of my car and water and cultivate it into a beautiful rolling lawn, or pierce my eyebrow or eat tofu. But that doesn't mean it is a good idea to do it.
To measure the bevel angle, first consider the bevel. It is a bilaterally symmetrical angle. It can be regarded as the apex of an isoceles triangle. An isoceles traiangle can be bisected into two right triangles. Calculating the acute (or the obtuse, either one!) angle of a right triangle is trivial. The formula to use here is S = O/H. The Sine of the angle = the Opposite side / Hypotenuse. The corner between the Opposite side and the Hypotenuse is the top edge of the hone wear stripe on the spine. The acute angle corner is at the edge. The right angle is in the middle of the spine and inaccessible. The Opposite side is half the thickness of the spine. The hypotenuse is the distance between the edge, and the top edge of the hone wear stip on the spine. Measure, then divide to find the Sine of the angle. Find the angle for that Sine. Double it, and you have your bevel angle. Dont forget to include the thickness of your tape, in calculating the modified bevel.
Okay, so you now know how to change the bevel angle by adding tape. But there are problems with this. First of all, if you hone with tape, the spine does not wear. However, the edge does wear. That is the whole point of honing. Now if the edge wears away and makes the blade narrower, but the spine does not wear and so the spine never grows thinner, eventually what happens to the bevel angle? Sure, it takes a while for taped honing to have a cumulative effect, but what is "a while", when the razor could easily last a couple hundred years? So you cause the bevel angle to get more obtuse, over years and years, but for what reason? It is rare to find a razor that has too acute a bevel angle due to honing. Honing with tape now has a certain effect now. Honing with tape on a regular basis has both the immediate and also the cumulative effect.
Another problem with taped honing is if you use an abrasive loaded strop, you kinda need to tape the blade exactly the same for stropping. Otherwise, the edge does not actually contact the strop or hone.
Another problem is with multiple layers, there is a compressibility issue. A slight change in pressure can significantly change immediate bevel angle. Plus, as the tape wears on the hone, the bevel angle is changing.
There are some legitimate reasons to hone with tape. For instance, when honing a full wedge. Or to apply a compound bevel. Or for that rare razor that for whatever reason has an extremely acute bevel. Otherwise, I don't think it is a good idea at all. Think about what you are doing, instead of just doing it.
However, it is your razor and you have every right to hone however you like, on whatever you like, I have every right to glue sod to the outside of my car and water and cultivate it into a beautiful rolling lawn, or pierce my eyebrow or eat tofu. But that doesn't mean it is a good idea to do it.
Once you hone on tape, you'll need to keep honing on tape or you'll have to reset the bevel without tape.
No one dies from using tape.
Me - I hate honing on tape, but I'll do it if I think I need to.
No one dies from using tape.
Me - I hate honing on tape, but I'll do it if I think I need to.
I'm not much of a fan of tape either. I use it for wedge ground razors, but otherwise I really don't like the type of feedback it gives. If you aren't battling wedges or really worn spines, the only reason to use it is protecting a decorative spine or preference of the feel.
- Thread starter
- #9
OK well thank you guys for explaining all the different pros and cons of using tape and thanks Slash for helping me visualize the long term effects of using tape, also Slash I read a post you did about using balsa wood with .5 Dimond then .1 Dimond and that combo made it so you practically never needed to hone your razor, but I can't find that post Id realy like to see that method explanation agin
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
I think I'll explain it in a separate thread, if you don't mind. Stay tuned...
Just once, I'd like to see someone prove, in real time, how a razor was 'killed' by honing on tape.
In other words - show me the mythological beast - a dead razor killed by tape.
Until that happens, I consider tape to be fine if the user wants to use it; and all decisions to use it reamain 'legitimate' until proven otherwise.
In other words - show me the mythological beast - a dead razor killed by tape.
Until that happens, I consider tape to be fine if the user wants to use it; and all decisions to use it reamain 'legitimate' until proven otherwise.
- Thread starter
- #12
Alright Slash thank you just let me know we're to look
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Now how would anyone know that it was taped honing that caused a razor to have a big fat bevel angle? Maybe if the spine is still fresh as a daisy, I don't know. And it's not going to happen overnight. That doesn't mean it is okay for it to happen. I have had a couple of razors that had too big of a bevel angle, but I certainly don't have one now. It is not a difficult thing to correct if you have some good coarse honing medium.
I do agree, if the user wants to use tape, yes it is fine. His razor. But I will always advise against it if it is done for no reason. I think you just enjoy arguing. That's okay, too. I don't have to read or reply to your posts if I don't want to.
But I will drop the other shoe now. Can you prove that I am wrong?
When someone shows me proof of a razor killed by tape, I'll worry about finding proof that they're wrong.
Until then - with stuff like this (razors and other irrelevant things) I worry about tangible problems, and I don't worry about problems other people imagine I might have at some point in the future.
Do note though - I hate tape. I hate honing on it. I think it interferes with accuracy and consistency and its just a pita.
I just don't care if others do and I think it's fine anyone to decide for themselves to hone how they want to.
Until then - with stuff like this (razors and other irrelevant things) I worry about tangible problems, and I don't worry about problems other people imagine I might have at some point in the future.
Do note though - I hate tape. I hate honing on it. I think it interferes with accuracy and consistency and its just a pita.
I just don't care if others do and I think it's fine anyone to decide for themselves to hone how they want to.
I see some things don't change lol
Are there razors that are designed (intentionally, or maybe not) to use tape? I have a razor from Portland razor Co, and the spine seems like it wouldn't create a proper shaving angle on its own. It seems to thin to me. I have clue about correct angles or how to find them etc.
I do hone the razor with tape because that's how it is done by the maker, but don't put a double bevel on it like the factory does.
I do hone the razor with tape because that's how it is done by the maker, but don't put a double bevel on it like the factory does.
Just did a little calculating to see some actual wear measurements needed to change the bevel angle 1 degree. If the razor honed with tape to 18 degrees and the edge to contact point was 3/4 inches, .05" would need to be worn off of the edge to reach a bevel angle of 19 degrees. That is a considerable amount even if you were taking out chips. I like my bevel angles at or close to 15 degrees so unless the 'bare' angle is less than that I would not use tape on my own razors. I am more inclined to use tape on other peoples razors though.
I think PRC did because there stock was too thin for razors and perhaps used tape to get the right bevel. Custom razor makers do it to preserve aesthetics.
I dont think anyone intentionally makes razors with using tape in mind.
I think for most razors tape or no tape does not matter.
What I have heard is some folks bread knifing a razor to hone out a chip, then taping the spine to preserve the aesthetics-on this razor I can certainly see a change in the angle to a point where it will not comfortably shave.
Personally I don't tape my razors except for certain conditions-wedge, decorated spines or customs.
What I have heard is some folks bread knifing a razor to hone out a chip, then taping the spine to preserve the aesthetics-on this razor I can certainly see a change in the angle to a point where it will not comfortably shave.
Personally I don't tape my razors except for certain conditions-wedge, decorated spines or customs.
