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Butterscotch opinion sought

C

Cumberland Sausage

$DSC_0023.jpg

I picked up this butterscotch handle a few days ago and have since removed the knot (which had been of very good quality but was looking pretty sad) and polished it up. I think it might be a Culmak brush, and was hoping somebody could confirm this, and say which model it is. The knot hole is a fraction under 25mm in diameter, and the handle stands 55mm high.
Also, I am now wondering what replacement knot to use. I'm thinking of a TGN Grade A Silvertip (would 22mm be suitable?) or Shavemac Silvertip. Which would you go for, and why?
 
Gigster

Gigster

I can't help with the model identification.

If the knot hole "is a fraction under 25mm," you need a 24mm knot. Anything below 24mm and you'll progressively have more hole than knot, as you go down the mm scale.

What's your budget for a knot?

A 24 mm Grade A from TGN will run you $32.95 (not including shipping). A Shavemac will be substantially more.

I'd drop Shavemac a line and ask for an estimated price for a knot ~ [email protected] .

Either way you go. . . .both provide excellent knots. All depends on much you want to open your wallet.
 
B

Big Jim

I would also suggest a 24 mm knot. They tend to run slightly undersized anyway.

Once you have the knot in hand, you might discover that the knot swell about 3 to 4 mm above the base disc is slightly larger than your hole. If you do, just open the hole up gently with a Dremel drum sander.

In selecting the knot, are you after appearance or after a very soft face feel? If appearance is the main issue, a TGN Finest two band would look great. It provides a lot of backbone while still having reasonable face feel. The two band with more dark hair would look good with that butterscotch handle. If a very soft face feel is what you are after, pursue one of the silvertips you mentioned.
 
C

Cumberland Sausage

Thanks for the advice, but the comments on suitable knot size leave me feeling slightly confused. Both of you recommend a knot just 1mm or so smaller than the hole in my brush handle, yet I've read a number of posts saying a knot 2 or 3mm smaller than the hole provides a better fit, because this takes into account the fact knots are a touch wider wider than the stated diameter immediately above their bases. I know I could widen out the hole if needed, but this project has gone well so far, and I'm very reluctant to risk something going wrong by complicating things.
 
BSAGuy

BSAGuy

I can't help with ID, just wanted to compliment you on the handle. Very nice and good luck as your restoration progresses.
 
Gigster

Gigster

Cumberland Sausage said:
Thanks for the advice, but the comments on suitable knot size leave me feeling slightly confused. Both of you recommend a knot just 1mm or so smaller than the hole in my brush handle, yet I've read a number of posts saying a knot 2 or 3mm smaller than the hole provides a better fit, because this takes into account the fact knots are a touch wider wider than the stated diameter immediately above their bases. I know I could widen out the hole if needed, but this project has gone well so far, and I'm very reluctant to risk something going wrong by complicating things.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind, not all knots (i.e., 24mm) aren't exactly the same - there are variations in plug and swell diameters.

I've used every knot size from 16mm to 30mm, in over 200 restorations. I use the rule of thumb: knot hole 1 - 1.5mm larger than the knot size. This is when using the existing knot hole or expanding the the knot hole to accept knot or much larger knot. The knot should not be forced into the knot handle, but it should fit snuggly. For me, the max differential is 2mm - knot hole diameter vs. knot size (a knot hole that is 2mm larger than the knot size). I've used the 2mm max on three or four restores, but that was due to the knots having very large swells above the knot plug.

Using the "rule of thumb," I determine the knot size and place the order. Once the knot arrives, I take knot measurements (overall height, plug width, swell width, etc.). Based on the measurements, I can then move forward (i.e., will the knot fit or do I need to open the knot hole just a hair).
 
B

Big Jim

Gigster said:
Keep in mind, not all knots (i.e., 24mm) aren't exactly the same - there are variations in plug and swell diameters.

I've used every knot size from 16mm to 30mm, in over 200 restorations. I use the rule of thumb: knot hole 1 - 1.5mm larger than the knot size. This is when using the existing knot hole or expanding the the knot hole to accept knot or much larger knot. The knot should not be forced into the knot handle, but it should fit snuggly. For me, the max differential is 2mm - knot hole diameter vs. knot size (a knot hole that is 2mm larger than the knot size). I've used the 2mm max on three or four restores, but that was due to the knots having very large swells above the knot plug.

Using the "rule of thumb," I determine the knot size and place the order. Once the knot arrives, I take knot measurements (overall height, plug width, swell width, etc.). Based on the measurements, I can then move forward (i.e., will the knot fit or do I need to open the knot hole just a hair).
Click to expand...


Well said.

May I add that every time you change a knot you are likely to run into some custom fitting. The variability of the knots is just too much. Once you have the new knot in hand you will see for yourself.

Additionally, opening up the hole with a drum sander is gentle. It You take a few swirls and try hand fitting the knot into the hole and repeat until you get the fit you are after. You need not be afraid of it.

Just a personal opinion, but I think that handle will look much better with a 24 mm knot than it will with a 22, and I believe you will find the brush more enjoyable.

You asked for advice, and that is what has been offered. In the end, though, you need to decide for yourself. Don't forget that there is more than one way to skin a cat, and I'm sure the brush will turn out just fine no matter how you handle it. Pun intended.
 
C

Cumberland Sausage

Gigster said:
Keep in mind, not all knots (i.e., 24mm) aren't exactly the same - there are variations in plug and swell diameters.

I've used every knot size from 16mm to 30mm, in over 200 restorations. I use the rule of thumb: knot hole 1 - 1.5mm larger than the knot size. This is when using the existing knot hole or expanding the the knot hole to accept knot or much larger knot. The knot should not be forced into the knot handle, but it should fit snuggly. For me, the max differential is 2mm - knot hole diameter vs. knot size (a knot hole that is 2mm larger than the knot size). I've used the 2mm max on three or four restores, but that was due to the knots having very large swells above the knot plug.

Using the "rule of thumb," I determine the knot size and place the order. Once the knot arrives, I take knot measurements (overall height, plug width, swell width, etc.). Based on the measurements, I can then move forward (i.e., will the knot fit or do I need to open the knot hole just a hair).
Click to expand...

Thanks for that explanation, which clarifies the situation a lot. I see it makes sense to get a knot which might be a little too big in the knowledge that the hole can be enlarged with relative ease, rather than one too small, in which case there's a limit to what can be done to rectify things. On the subject of knots, I think I might go for the Ace Shaving 24mm silvertip. It gets quite good reviews, and represents little financial risk should things not quite go to plan with my first restoration.
 
Gigster

Gigster

Cumberland Sausage said:
Thanks for that explanation, which clarifies the situation a lot. I see it makes sense to get a knot which might be a little too big in the knowledge that the hole can be enlarged with relative ease, rather than one too small, in which case there's a limit to what can be done to rectify things. On the subject of knots, I think I might go for the Ace Shaving 24mm silvertip. It gets quite good reviews, and represents little financial risk should things not quite go to plan with my first restoration.
Click to expand...


No problem.

If you end up expanding the knot hole, it isn't that difficult. As Big Jim said, "You take a few swirls and try hand fitting the knot into the hole and repeat until you get the fit you are after." When I expand the knot hole, I'm constantly measuring with calipers and have the knot at hand for test fits. Just go slow and make very light passes. This is the time you need to be light-handed.

Good luck. Ask if you need assistance. And post pics. lol
 
C

Cumberland Sausage

The Ace knot hasn't arrived yet, but, looking ahead, I'm certain I will have to raise it up quite a bit from the bottom of the hole, which I believe is very deep by modern standards -- over 20mm. This was probably to cater for the method involved in making the old knot, which had several lengths of very thin copper wire wound round its base to help hold it together. This being the case, what would be the best material to fill in the bottom of the hole? I know some people use coins, but I think it would take quite a few to lift the new knot up enough, and I feel this might upset the balance of the brush. Would cork be better? Or perhaps some cork with one coin on top of that, to provide a stable base for the knot? Or something else completely? Any advice or suggestions will be most welcome.
 
Gigster

Gigster

You can use a number of different materials - coins, wood plugs, cork, PVC, epoxy, Styrofoam, etc.

I take into consideration the overall weight anytime I'm contemplating adding coins, BBs, fishing weights, etc.. Another factor to consider. . .will it be base or knot heavy (the majority of the weight towards the base or the knot).

A coin placed on top of a piece of cork works well.
 
C

Cumberland Sausage

Thanks for the additional advice. It's a nice substantial handle as it is, and I feel it would not benefit from a lot more weight. I will epoxy a bit of cork in, let that set, insert a coin, let that set, then epoxy the knot in place. I'd better make sure I get the loft right!
 
Mr Bob

Mr Bob

I can say with complete certainty that the handle is a mid to late 50's Culmak. The specific model, however, is throwing me off. I thought it might be an 86, which has a 24mm hole, but it's only 52mm tall. The SM2 is about 55mm I think, but the knot is only 23mm? (sorry, sold that one so can't measure it).

It's too bad that the original knot was not in good shape, but the handle looks like it has many hours on it. The Culmak Best Badgers are fantastic when found in NOS or minty condition - great badger hairs, almost like a modern two-band finest with super soft tips. The 86 was the little brother to the 90. My Culmak 90 is super soft, denser than a Chubby 2, with 3mm more loft. It will never leave me. (The 86 is dense as well.)

Looking forward to seeing the finished brush!
 
C

Cumberland Sausage

The Ace knot has now arrived, and been set and given a few test latherings. I used four nylon washers, stuck together in advance with Devcon two-part epoxy, to raise the knot up. It was eventually set at a depth of about 12mm, which seems about right to me. The knot feels very luxurious and has not lost one hair during its test phase, but I haven't yet used it during an actual shave. I will post a pic asap.
 
brandaves

brandaves

With a great avatar comes great misidentification
Looks a bit like a Mohawk brush...although I've never seen one exactly that color and can't say for sure. Great looking restore!
 
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