new to DE problems -- raw face.

**nichhel** · 08-10-2006, 08:01 AM

This is my third day with the DE. Merkur blades in a Futur. Proraso, badger-brush, conditioner, hot towel. Lather in a cupped palm, a touch of cream on the face too -- lather is slick and hot in the beginning, cold and thin by the end. The menthol is irritating by the end, and my face is dry.

Here's my razor technique -- NS with stretched skin, cheeks, neck, upperlip, lowerlip. Then half of the V, then the other half of the V -- basically guenron's method, but skipping the SN pass.

I have trouble finding the right angle. On the cheeks it's easy. Hold the razor with handle parallel to ground, then drop angle until it starts moving by itself and cutting (2-3 finger grip). But below the chin, on the neck, and especially on the upper lip -- all areas of heavier beard -- the razor never starts cutting at all! It just catches the hair and stops -- gravity is at the wrong angle too, I think, so I have to consciously drag it. I've basically been doing touch and cut everywhere with a fairly exposed DE blade -- and my face feels it.

I was surprised to find another recommendation, which I shall try, hold the razor with handle parallel to the body (right angled to the ground), then rotate it upwards and away from the face, until the razor starts to slide and cut (This is AFDavis11's suggestion). Any idea on which method is recommended? This method seems kind of backwards because at the beginning the blade is against the skin, yet I'm going to give it a shot.

The futur is heavy, which is supposed to be good. But is it too heavy? I keep feeling it might rotate around the handle, ie I have to keep it balanced -- this makes my grip a bit tighter.

Laney1566 says in this post[1] that using an adjustable, once you've reached the 3 setting, starting from 1, prepares you for the Merkur razors. Does that mean the HD and Futur are too harsh? Should I pay the crazy ebay prices for the 40s singlespeed?

This morning I was all set to put in another classicshaving order for a Merkur HD, but Laney's post stopped me cold. I don't want to blow more money on the DE thing only to get another razor that leaves my face raw. At this point I'm not sure about DE, or Merkur (blades or futur), but I know I'm sick of disposables.

What do the regulars think? I have some creams and blades in the mail, but if the razor's the problem... should I try a different brand than Merkur, or just spring for the HD? or a 40s SS?

This week's been rather rough -- getting up early, getting to work raw :-)

If I didn't like the ritual that makes it worth getting up earlier, and the concentration shaving requires (almost like a morning meditation) I would probably quit. But learning anything takes more than three days, and perhaps I just got the wrong equipment.

Thank god for alum and creams though!

cheers to all the fine folks on this board,

--
'Dan

[1] http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showpos...6&postcount=12

**rikrdo** · 08-10-2006, 08:25 AM

Dude...
Take it easy.
This requires patience and practice.

I would recommend giving your face a day (or 2) off and try to heal a little.
I would also recommend N to S passes until your technique improves.

Light.....really light pressure and only 2 N-S passes for a while.
And try a method to keep your lather at least warm for all passes. I am using the hot water in a mug on a cup warmer method and it works great. Also a fan of the Proraso....altho I 've been mixing some Col. Conk glycerin soap with the Proraso lately. Good results.

Hope this helps. I'm sure there will be many other suggestions. Keep a stiff upper lip !!

**TomH** · 08-10-2006, 08:31 AM

Hi Dan,

...did you shave without any pressure on the razor???
IMO it's important that you shave only with the own-weight of the DE...

Thomas

**mrob** · 08-10-2006, 08:32 AM

Sounds like you're lathering right on your face? While some guys prefer this approach, you might try making your lather in a bowl--ceramic, deep enough to whip your brush around pretty good--and see if that helps.

I've not used a Futur so can't comment on that. I'd suggest that you don't overdo the "no pressure" thing, though. You definitely need enough pressure for the razor to cut the whisker, so don't be too careful.

Also, what kind of blade are you using? If its the Merkur that came with the razor, toss it and try a fresh blade. I like the Derbys, you'll hear plenty of other suggestions soon I'd guess.

Hang in there--it *will* get better!

**fatt_tony** · 08-10-2006, 08:56 AM

Dan,
Either stick you cupped hand in hot water and leave it there for your entire shave

or go to the kitchen and get a coffee mug, ceral bowl, mixing bowl, terra cotta planter.......It is important to keep you lather thick and warm, I use a simple rice bowl from target that I got at a thrift store for like 50 cents.

Don't give up on de shaving. Take it slow. It is ok to get to use a stiff grip on the razor if you worry about it slipping just remember not to transfer that pressure to your face. And like rikrdo said give your face a day (or 2) off. If you decide to go ahead and get an hd you can just keep that futur on hold until you get the presure and angles down.

Tony

**Dennis** · 08-10-2006, 08:57 AM

Hi Dan - Sounds like you need to relax and not worry so much - it is just shaving.

I started on the Futur with Merkur blades as well. It is a fine razor - nothing wrong with it as far as shaving. My suggestions is to just leave it set at about 1.5 and do not adjust it - treat it like it is fixed for now. One of the things that really helped me was getting the blade sampler pack from letterk (John) - just send him a PM. Blades can make a big, big difference in the quality of your shave. You can choose either 5 or 10 blades from all the usual suspects - Israeli, Euro Gillettes, Derby, Merkur, and Feather for a very reasonable price. You might try slipping a Feather in that Futur and your shave experience is completely different - you never know until you try it.

I would try lathering in a bowl instead of your palm. I have been using a medium size mixing bowl lately (you know, like for whipping egg whites or baking). It has been incredibly easy to mix perfect, exploding lather in it with the nice sloping sides made for mixing and the room. An oversized coffee/chili mug or a cereal bowl would do fine as well.

For shaving, just let the weight of the razor do most of the work - the angle should almost set itself with the curve of the head and the safety bar. Don't overthink it. You did not say what you were doing for prep before hand, but try shaving after your hot shower or at least thoroughly wet your face and neck with as hot of water as you can stand for at least a minute. This will prep and soften the whiskers. If the menthol in the Proraso is bothersome, try some different creams or soaps. I highly recommend the Scotto (PM him) cream samplers. You might also try to pick something up locally like Kiss My Face Mint or maybe Toms of Maine Mint at the local co-op/granola store if you have those around you. Just keep at it - it will take a bit of time. Slowly but surely you will start to get it and the shave quality will improve every day.

Dennis

**Bunker950** · 08-10-2006, 09:03 AM

Hi There

The Futur is a lovely razor, but can be aggressive. Start by using a very low setting i.e. 1 and try to only go with the grain passes for a day or two. Still using the razor on this setting try against the grain and see how it goes. Then gradually move to a setting of 1.5. I also learned the hard way that a more aggressive setting does not guarantee a smoother shave. Try to master the technique on a lower setting before moving to the more aggressive settings. Your prep might also need some attention in order to keep the lather thick and creamy till the last pass.

Enjoy the shaving......happy days are on their way

Steven

**thatbrian** · 08-10-2006, 09:22 AM

Sounds like you are just new to this and you need to be patient (takes one to know one) I am fairly new too and felt the same way that you did after my 4th shave and a raw face. Here are some tips that helped me (YMMV):

1)Take two days off. I know it's not easy, but while you are learning you are tougher on your face than you will be in a couple of weeks so your face needs a rest. I found it helpful to shave every other day in the very beginning.

2)Only do 2 NS passes for now. Your face will thank you. When you get better technique you can do other passes.

3)Set you razor to the lowest setting for now.

4)Try Feather blades (and others too) Feathers kept me from quiting wet shaving. They are so sharp that they do more in less passes (less irritation). Some people hate them so YMMV.

5) READ, READ, READ! Reading about others experience on the BB here at B&B will help a lot. If you do enough reading you will see that you are not alone in having this problem and it WILL get better.

Hang in there.

Brian

**Scotto** · 08-10-2006, 09:29 AM

Hi Dan.

First, take a deep breath.... good. Now let it out..... There you go

A few words of wisdom. First, learning this thing takes a bit of time, so be patient and give your face time to adapt to its new regimen. Second, prep is everything. Proraso should give you a great shave. I like the idea of using a lathering bowl. I am sure you can find something around the house to use. Squirt a snurdle of cream in the bowl and whip the sucker up with a wet brush into a thick lather. I wouldn't worry too much about keeping it warm, that will come later. You are using hot towels on your face it sounds like; that is good. A hot shower will do as well.

The Futur will give you an exceptional shave if you let it. Keep it on a low setting, and let the weight of the razor do the work. You may even have to support the weight of the razor a bit. Merkur blades are decent, I hope you are using one from a fresh pack and not the one that came with the Futur.

To learn angle, I often tell folks to shave a bit of the hair on their arms. That should give you a sense of what the proper angle is.

I wouldn't run off to buy a new razor. Keep the variables as constant as you can so you can learn what you are doing. Good luck and keep asking questions; you'll get there.

**Leisureguy** · 08-10-2006, 09:37 AM

Lots of good advice already, so I'll mainly second what others have said:

a. Do use a lathering bowl. You get really good lather that way.
b. Dial the Futur to 1, and then gradually move it up as you get more comfortable.
c. Two passes is fine for now, I would guess: top down and then ear-to-nose.
d. Try Feather blades.
e. Use the two-finger or three-finger grip to get the feel, and then switch to a grip that you're comfortable with. The Futur is a little heavy to use that grip throughout.
f. Try Proraso Pre-/Post-Shave Cream as a preshave: rub a small amount into your wet face before lathering. (Don't do this if you perceive it as irritating.)
g. Try Taylor Avocado shaving cream -- highly recommended by other novices as a very help cream.
h. Use an alum bar after the shave: helps the skin, I think.

Hang in there. As you pay attention to what you're doing---as in fact you seem to be---you'll discover nuances for yourself.

**Tito** · 08-10-2006, 10:18 AM

Dan

I don't want to hijack your post but I'd like to ask the group when they say "it takes time". Exactly how much time do they mean? Cause I've been working at this for "some time" and I'm still not getting it.

some time= 2 Months

**jduffy** · 08-10-2006, 01:26 PM

I'm about 4 weeks into it and I'm feeling relatively comfortable about it. What helped for me is that I bought a Gillette Tech at an antique store. I put a Merkur Super Platinum blade into it after sterilizing the razor and was blown away at what a gentle shave it gives. Very tame compared to my Merkur Long Classic.

Having another razor in comparison has helped me fine tune my technique for the Merkur as I better understand how the razors shave differently. Plus I can go two days using the Merkur and then two days using the Gillette. I also use the Gillette when I'm running late to work. Not as close a shave as the Merkur Long Classic but nothing to be ashamed of for sure.

It's a big world out there shaving-wise and I'm just getting started in it. It's a journey, not a destination and I'm looking forward to seeing where it takes me.

Enjoy and good luck.

**TraderJoe** · 08-10-2006, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Tito

Dan

I don't want to hijack your post but I'd like to ask the group when they say "it takes time". Exactly how much time do they mean? Cause I've been working at this for "some time" and I'm still not getting it.

some time= 2 Months

I've been at it since april, and I'm only now (within past two weeks) getting consitently BBS shaves everyday. Before then, the results were quite spotty at times.

**mrob** · 08-10-2006, 03:22 PM

Its been since about March for me, and I still have a rough shave every once in a while.

But if I'm honest about it, even my bad shaves are better than my good shaves with a cartridge.

**nichhel** · 08-10-2006, 03:23 PM

rikrdo,
no matter how stiff the lip, the upper lip never gets shaved well! I think I'll try 1 NS pass, and then the remainder with a mach/sensor.

tomh,
yes, only the weight of the razor. works well on cheeks, but not on neck, upper lip.
the blade is a fresh merkur, i changed blades thrice from a fresh pack. i have heard blades take a day to 'settle down' -- so will wait one more day.

fattony,
i've been looking at hot bowl options. going to try and work up quasi-moss-scuttle. the issue is -- if merkur razors in general have more aggressive shaves, perhaps instead of an hd i should get a singlespeed, and come back to the futur later.

Also, what do you mean by rice bowl? Just a bowl cannot keep a brush warm, surely? Unless you mean a rice-cooker? Or just that lather forms better.

Mike02 -- I set it at 1, never moved it. Changed the blade the 2nd day, had a BAAD time, halfway thru the shave realised it had been moved to 6!! Had me a time trying to get it adjusted back with wet hands and lather all over without cutting off a finger!

A bowl comes today. Scotto's samplers, Letterk's blades and ebay Derby's should be in the mail by this weekend.

Bunker950,
Elaborate on 'Futur is a lovely razor' ? It looks good, sure, but what else do you like about it? I find a good-lookin' hard-cutting razor has a perfect female equivalent -- the nagging girlfriend you dump

thatbrian,
I will take a day off. Feather's might help. I find the Merkur's don't cut very well. And sharper blades might well give less irritation, that's the reductio of the whole anti-modern-gillette/wetshaving thing anyway, and the irony of the whole thing, according to shaveblog.

Read? Whooey! I read so many posts I have a tic in my left eye

Scotto,
Good catch, I am using hot towels. Incredibly relaxing, I almost drop off to sleep while standing in the shower! Also my left arm is already half-shaved

Guess I've got to start with the right fore-arm now! Perhaps my face is too dry, the skin not supple. Shaves start well, but end badly. The proraso is nice in the beginning, but only hurts towards the end, when my face is raw. Fresh razor pack though.

Also, Scotto, great advice of keeping the variables constant. I'll remember that.

Leisureguy,
I'll be trying the feathers -- the sampler pack. Question for you -- how do you compare merkurs in general and old-50s gillettes? Why do you think the Vision is the 'ultimate' razor (if you do). anyway, to use a go-term, I guess it's onegai-shimas for me!

jduffy,
Vindication! You said: Very tame compared to my Merkur Long Classic. I think rather than a HD, I'm going to get a gillette and test it out, while keeping the Futur for one single day a week, say Saturday. If I'd read this forum before the Amazon.com review, I'd have known to buy an HD. The Amazon review pooh-poohed the idea that the Futur was a bad razor for a newbie, and it looked good, so I bought it.

And yes, it is a journey. The goal is (well one of the goals is.. Among our goals are such diverse goals as..) BBS shaves and irritation free skin.

To all, thanks for the responses and support. Just the harried getting-to-work part which had me in a tizzy. Wasn't feeling very burma shave this week I guess.

**fatt_tony** · 08-10-2006, 04:13 PM

It is just a ceramic bowl that one would put rice in. Nice round shape and big enough for lots of lather. I fill the bowl with hot water then run hot water in the sink to almost the top of the bowl throw the brush in and let it soak while I shower.The bowl stays pretty warm through out the shave. The SS gillettes make good starters I have heard also, sometimes you can find them pretty cheap on ebay.

Tony

**Leisureguy** · 08-10-2006, 04:39 PM

I like the Vision because I get a very close and comfortable and nick-free shave with it, even though I have it set on N (least aggressive) or just above N. I get the same quality shave as with the Slant Bar, but more easily. I do have a 40s and a couple of 50s Super Speeds, but so far have tried them only with Swedish Gillettes, so really should try them with Feathers. With the Gillette blades, they're okay, but nothing to get excited about. But since I use the Vision with Feathers, the comparison isn't fair. I'll try the Gillettes with Feathers and report back.

**Dennis** · 08-11-2006, 06:26 AM

Dan was wondering about the differences in the various razors. I think you understand now how RAD sets in...

Different razors shave differently, and sometimes the same model of razor shaves and feels different from another as well. I have four (well, five) DE razors: Futur, 1948-1950 Gillette Super (not Single) Speed, a 1960 Gillette Adjustable (commonly called a Fat Boy), a 1958 Fat Boy, and the Merkur HD. The differences between the razors has to do with adjustablity, how much the blade is exposed (if it is fixed), the variations in the angle due to how much the blade may be bent by the head, and the different geometries on the head, among others likely as well.

There seems to be a general misunderstanding (but not on these boards necessarily) that aggressive is better. If you can have a range on an adjustable from 1-9 (less blade to most blade) and you get a good shave on 4, then a shave on 8 must be much better. This is not necessarily true, and in fact I find the opposite to be true for the most part. Why you keep hearing about the 1940s Super Speeds is that Corey on shaveblog championed them. He is correct in his assessment too - they are excellent, excellent razors. Those no date model SSs are nothing special to look at, the but head size and particular geometry along with the miniscule amount of blade exposed just makes for super gentle and close shaves. But should you go out and try to land one of these razors to make your shaves better? Not necessarily. If you put the time in the learn the ins and outs of your current razor, it really can be the only razor you will ever need for the rest of your life, honest.

All that said, my favorite razor right now is the 1960 Fat Boy. I find it much easier to adjust than the Futur, and I find at the low numbers it really emulates the shave of my SS. So in that razor I get the benefits of the SS plus adjustability, and it looks cool too in that stylin 1950-1960 space age plastic travel case. Fat Boys are readily available and can be considerably cheaper than Ebay Super Speeds. I can't knock the HD either - it just throws out consistently excellent shaves with nothing to screw around with adjusting - same as the SS. The HD and SS are not the same - the HD geometry is different, the head size is different, the HD comes apart (unscrews to change the blade) and the SS is a twist/silo opener. The HD has a bit more blade exposure too. The major difference is though that you can buy a pretty cheap, brand spanking new-in-the-box HD from all the usual suspects on the net, whereas you can only get a Super Speed at an auction or sale, it is over 60 years old, may be full of dead skin, crud and grime, needs to cleaned, oiled, and sterilized, polished, and who knows what body parts it shaved before it came to you. Lovely to think about. It also may be broken, bent or damaged in some way. And they are fairly rare and can be pretty expensive. That is why everybody recommends the HD instead.

Dennis

**Leisureguy** · 08-11-2006, 07:54 AM

I'll endorse the idea of the more aggressive settings not necessarily delivering a better shave. Indeed, for many novices, the more aggressive settings deliver razor burn and cuts. Go with a very mild setting, and achieve closeness with more passes---whence the popularity of the 4-pass method.

**dave_po** · 08-13-2006, 10:24 PM

Hello,

I have been shaving with DE, and reading the forum for about a month now. I thought my similar starting experience may be of some use to you, Dan. I started with a Gillette adjustable that my grandfather had given me, a boar brush, and Proraso cream. The first two weeks were most unpleasant, as I was experiencing a very raw face, and bumps on my neck after shaving, along with quite a few bleeding nicks during the shave. Losing hope, I picked up some Van Der Hagen shave soap from Walgreen's and gave that a try, I was left with a clean shave, and no nicks or irritation. It was at that point that I ran a little test on my forearm and found that I was reacting allergically to the Proraso. Although it was disappointing to have to stop using the cream, since the cooling affect after the shave was most enjoyable, I am now experiencing a more comfortable shave than ever before.

So, if the advice from the more experienced members does not help, I would recommend trying a different cream/soap.

Dave