Steel for razors

I think frank and I talked a little about your homemade forge and grinder set up. This was something I've been really interested in doing myself. I'm not very steel savvy but I wasn't very straight razor savvy a year ago either. But I've also heard that a LOT of people use O1. What is a better substitute and where do you purchase blanks?

i think I might wanna pick your brain about your setup in the future

jKyro said:

i think I might wanna pick your brain about your setup in the future

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Pick away anytime.

My first six razors were 01. I got great results, but the more I learned, the more I suspected that not only was it overkill, but that I might get even better results with a plain high carbon steel. I am now using 1095. I make my blanks from bar stock.http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/372529-My-homemade-8-8-smiley/page13 These steels in bar form are very easy to find. There is a strong argument for using 1084 which is closer to the eutectoid and simpler to use.


I think 01 is so popular because it is so easy to harden. I started with 01 mainly because the site I chose stocked it and not plain high carbon steels and I knew a lot of makers were using 01.

Interesting. I've never done any kind of steel working but it doesn't seem like a lot of fun. have you ventured into Damascus steel at all?

Does* does...

jKyro said:

Interesting. I've never done any kind of steel working but it doesn't seem like a lot of fun. have you ventured into Damascus steel at all?

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I have not. 37 years ago when I first started working with steel I thought pattern welded steel was the coolest thing going. Now, to me, it almost seems artificial in nature because the etch has to be protected, and the edge has to be protected from the etchant. This is just my personal feeling, many people like pattern welded steel, it's just not a direction I want to go at this time.

Jkyro I would HEAVILY suggest you head down to Portland and take a 3 day class from Arnon at Bridgetown Forge to learn how to make a Japanese chefs knives. It is a very similar process to making a straight razor. Forging the blade, working with a tang, annealing, tempering, etc. in fact you can really consider it making a giant wedge (granted the geometry is totally different). You may also want to look into joining the northwest blacksmith association and heading down to Longview once a month for open forging nights. It's a pretty good way to begin learning the art of working with steel.

Oh. And an on topic post... I am with you Blues 1084 or 1095 is great metal for straights. It's also great stock to keep on hand for just about any 61 or so HRC application. Personally I find the metal to remind me of good French steel. I could be totally off in left field, but that's my opinion. 01 tool steel is a good candidate to use like you mentioned, I just don't seem to be as fond due to similar reasons associated with honing. I have also worked with D2 which I like even less. So yeah, my opinions for whatever it is worth. ;-)

Ah man I'm actually from Longview haha. Unfortunately I'm only here for two more months and ones is going to be in the desert. The other will be clearing to pcs to ft Riley. I wish I had found out about it about 6 months ago :-(

Bummer about leaving so soon, wherever you end up I would recommend learning the Hofi style of smithing. In a nutshell it is a style of smithing that focuses on ergonomics and impact minimization on the body. Smithing can really beat up your body fast if you aren't careful.


Blues - are you eyeballing temps when you do your heat treatments or are you using a knife kiln? I'm sorely tempted to get a knife kiln as I've overheated a couple blades.

CartridgesAreADrag said:

Blues - are you eyeballing temps when you do your heat treatments or are you using a knife kiln? I'm sorely tempted to get a knife kiln as I've overheated a couple blades.

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I watch for decalescence for austenitizing. I use my forge with the razor inside a piece of pipe to even out the temperature. A piece of charcoal in the pipe prevents scaling and decarburization. I used a kiln when I was at Charlie Lewis' meet. A kiln with a viewing window and a controlled atmosphere would be best IMO. Charlie's kiln did not have a viewing window, so although we knew the time the razor was in the kiln, the time that the steel was actually at austenite was unknown, at least to me.

Interesting. I didn't know the trick about the chunk of charcoal. Do you use it as a stopper at the end of the pipe?

CartridgesAreADrag said:

Interesting. I didn't know the trick about the chunk of charcoal. Do you use it as a stopper at the end of the pipe?

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Yes, the charcoal is at the far end of the 1-1/4" pipe. I have used small pieces at the front end also, but it doesn't seem to do any more and it blocks the view to an extent. You can tell it's working because there is no scale. What really surprised me is how long the charcoal lasts in the forge. I assumed that it would burn up so fast that I'd have a hard time keeping up with it, but the lack of free oxygen makes it burn very slowly. I use a CO monitor in the shop when I do this.


EDIT Just wanted to add that this technique may be dangerous if done in a kiln, as the CO is a fuel and could cause an explosion.

Just saw your post about this thread. I'm getting my blacksmithing setup all complete, just missing a good anvil, but I've got a gas forge, kiln, tongs, etc. along with all my normal metal and wood working equipment and tools. So I'm looking forward to staring to work on some blades with it all.

once I get the anvil I have a few different steels I want to try out. I am slightly at a disadvantage since my kiln is actually a modern controlled glass kiln, it does everything the knife kilns do, and just as well (vast control of heating/cooling rates/temps etc) with one exception, it's limit is 1800*F, so there are some of the higher temp steels that I cannot accurately harden (like D2)...

I'm going to start out with O1, I've got a Joe Edson custom razor made from O1 and I don't think it's bad to hone, I think everyone will have preferences for different steels and alloys and such, I don't know that there is a 'perfect' steel for razors. Some are better than others, but among the better ones, each has their pros and cons..I also grabbed some O6 steel as well as A10 and L6, I plan on doing some experiments in simple folded Damascus eventually as well, I'm a little different than most damascus fans, I want a very subtle grain instead of a harsh contrasty pattern.

I'm really interested to see how the O6 works out. its similar to O1, but more carbon, and graphite in the steel makeup. the A10 seems pretty interesting to me as well. I got the L6 for Damascus experiments rather than straight razor building

here's a link with details on the O6 which shows a graph comparing the O6, O1, A10, and L6
http://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/technical-data/steelO6

Aloicious said:

Just saw your post about this thread. I'm getting my blacksmithing setup all complete, just missing a good anvil

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Cool Justin, you may want to look at a post anvil for blades. Check out Charlie Lewis' videos. I prefer my large anvil, but post anvils are far cheaper. I've hears of people using pieces of fork lift forks for post anvils.

Your post about annealing GDs was one of the things that prompted this thread. Re-hardening a hollow ground razor would likely result in a potato chipped blade as it is too thin to resist warping during the quench. During manufacture, the hardening is done before the razor is fully ground.

I was also curious about your annealing process of 01. My recent understanding is that heating hypereutectoid steels above A-cm then cooling slowly results in large carbides which are undesirable, hence the argument for 1084.

So I had a response written out and my video card had an error and I had to reset ahh...heh

anyways, yeah I've seen charlie's videos a few times. I plan on doing other work besides just razors including kitchen cutlery and various tools and such, as well as decorative pieces, so I am looking at a big normal anvil as well as making a smaller post anvil for more delicate work like razors and such.

The annealing of the GD razors was really just an experiment, nothing more, I kindof expected scale and warping and such, what I didn't expect was the differences in results between the 2 models, with the 66 having severe problems, and the 300 remaining very in tact, especially when both were in the same kiln during the process, I just thought it was interesting and worth noting over there.

as far as my process with O1, I'm just getting into the blacksmithing so, I'm not metallurgist, but purpose of the soft annealing process is to form an even distribution of carbides in the steel, which will make the material softer and tougher. This is only used during working the blade after forging it, which is then followed by stress relieving heat cycle, hardening/quenching, then tempering process to desired final hardness.

Here is the data I use for O1:

FORGINGHeating for forging must be done slowly and uniformly. Soak through at 1800°-1900°F and reheat as often as necessary, stopping work when the temperature drops below 1600°F. After forging, cool slowly in lime, mica, dry ashes or furnace. O-1 should always be annealed after forging.
ANNEALING
Heat slowly to 1400°-1450°F, hold until entire mass is heated through, and cool slowly in the furnace (40F per hour) to about 1000°F, after which cooling rate may be increased. Suitable precautions must be taken to prevent excessive carburization or decarburization.
STRESS RELIEVING
When desirable to relieve the strains of machining, heat slowly to 1050°-1250°F, allow to equalize, and then cool in still air (Strain Relieving).
PREHEAT PRIOR TO HARDENING
Warm slightly before charging into the preheat furnace, which should be operating at about 1100°-1200°F.
HARDENING
After thorough preheating, transfer to the hardening furnace, operating from 1450°-1500°F, depending on the size of the part.
QUENCHING
Quench in warm oil and allow to cool in the oil until a temperature of 125°-150°F has been reached, or to where the part can be held in the bare hand, and temper immediately.
TEMPERING
O1 is generally tempered in the range of 300°-600°F. Tempering temperatures and resulting Rockwell C hardness, based on a 1 inch round samples oil quenched from 1475°F and tempered for 2 hours, are as follows:

Tempering Temperature F	Rockwell C
300	65
350	63
400	62.5
450	61
500	60
600	57

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When I start working with it I'm planning to shoot for a final rockwell grade around the 63 range.

When you get to talking about the 1084 vs O1 vs whatever I think we're in the range of simple personal preferences, since both 1084 and O1 are very good blade steels and at this level we're just splitting hairs on what is better or worse. So I don't know that when properly worked and handled, either one will give a significant advantage over the other. I think the added carbon in the O1 can prove helpful for razor use because it does provide a benefit in wear resistance, but really the use (or misuse) of the blade by the user will play a larger factor in the longevity of the edge than the differences between 1084 vs O1.

at least that is my thought.

That all sounds pretty good.

It is surprising that the GD 66 had such problems at relatively low temperatures.

I have not used 1084. I have only used 01 and more recently 1095. I was just saying that there is a strong argument for using 1084 because the heat treating is simpler and being close to the eutectoid, carbide formation is not a problem.

Aloicious said:

I'm getting my blacksmithing setup all complete, just missing a good anvil, but I've got a gas forge, kiln, tongs, etc. along with all my normal metal and wood working equipment and tools. So I'm looking forward to staring to work on some blades with it all.

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Keep us informed when you get set up. It sounds like your really close. I like my full size anvil also. I don't have a post anvil, I was just throwing that out as a full size anvil is often a stumbling block for people getting started.

bluesman 7 said:

That all sounds pretty good.

It is surprising that the GD 66 had such problems at relatively low temperatures.

I have not used 1084. I have only used 01 and more recently 1095. I was just saying that there is a strong argument for using 1084 because the heat treating is simpler and being close to the eutectoid, carbide formation is not a problem.

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For sure, what I've read is that 1084 is kindof a fool-proof steel, very easy to harden/temper correctly and such, especially when not using a kiln or other controlled environment and just doing it by eye in the forge.

bluesman 7 said:

Keep us informed when you get set up. It sounds like your really close. I like my full size anvil also. I don't have a post anvil, I was just throwing that out as a full size anvil is often a stumbling block for people getting started.

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yeah, I'm really close, I need to build a stand for my forge, and get an area of my garage setup for all the equipment, but it shouldn't be too long, there are a couple old anvils for sale on local classified, but everyone thinks that they're made of solid gold or something because they all ask for like $5-8 per pound, regardless of the condition. Luckily out here there are a lot of farms and such, so lots of old farmers that might have them in barns, etc, I've got several people looking around for one for me, worst case scenario I'll bite the bullet and buy a new one, especially since the used ones on the classifieds are basically asking for more than new prices lol.

I think you should look into buying some White #1 from Hitachi