Below The Tie - Below The Crowd

Nice thread Rev Avery.

I'm reminded of an old timer wet shaver who posted in an SOTO forum with the same picture every day: MWF, Schick Injector E, semogue 620 and Clubman He had been wets having for years and probably had more experience than most people on the forum .

My very first DE was a vintage Gillette off ebay for $5, I still use it today it's my go to for the top. Sure I've added things but I certainly could have survived with that razor alone.

-Stephen

That's great. And as you point out, the relationship between $$$ and the quality of the shave is really pretty tenuous. One of my best shavers is a 1956 Red Tip that's missing its end caps, I paid all of $7 for it at the Brimfield (MA) Antiques Fair a few years ago. I can honestly say that a shave with it will pass inspection on any parade ground that I've ever stood on.

And you've convinced me that I need to try that Feather.

Great post RevAvery - a man of simple means is exactly what I strive for in everything I do. As others have said, money should in no way limit anyone's ability, in anything. I was wracked with indecision after spending almost $200 on a stainless steel razor, only to find out a $12 Tech was exactly all I needed. Needless to say I returned the stainless one, and continue to love my smooth riding Tech.

Live, and learn ;-)

RepeatPete said:

I find that most of what's out there is either good or great with some rare exceptions. I believe the quality of the shave is highly related to prep and technique. Now that I basically know what I'm doing, I've managed to get great shaves from just about everything I use.

Of course this knowledge doesn't keep me from looking at new hardware and software

Click to expand...

Nope, if that were the way of it, we'd all only have one razor.

redrako said:

Nice thread Rev Avery.

I'm reminded of an old timer wet shaver who posted in an SOTO forum with the same picture every day: MWF, Schick Injector E, semogue 620 and Clubman He had been wets having for years and probably had more experience than most people on the forum .

Click to expand...

A true minimalist - I love it!

I try and keep it real simple myself - the same razor, brush n soap every day. I do get crazy with 3 or 4 aftershaves though - all cheap classics but I love them. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

My belief is that the top-dollar items have more snob value than anything else. across various price points, the handle and the finish may be rough or fine but the blade gap and angle is the same, or maybe somehow better, on something cheaper. The most expensive equipment would be of little help if you just do not click with it when it comes to technique. I have heard analogous comparisons with totally unrelated fields like photography. Many photography enthusiasts have tens of thousands of dollars wrapped in their hobby or livelihood, yet they cannot capture the moment as did Ansel Adams with the technology of 70 years ago.

GoneRetroInOH said:

My belief is that the top-dollar items have more snob value than anything else.

Click to expand...

I'll have to disagree with that.

Machining stainless steel is not the same thing as die casting a pot metal razor. It's also a lot more expensive.

nuclearblast said:

I'll have to disagree with that.

Machining stainless steel is not the same thing as die casting a pot metal razor. It's also a lot more expensive.

Click to expand...

True, but it doesn't necessarily shave any better.

I'm glad you love your Feather Popular. I don't have one, but I have read several say that perhaps it doesn't get as much praise as it should.

I think DE razors are a funny thing though, in that $100 is considered to be a lot of money spent on shaving. I realize that most will consider this comparison like apples and oranges ... but apples and oranges are both fruit, and I buy them both at grocery stores for food ... so I think they are all worth comparing:


A rough, 3-year and 30-year TCO comparisons of Cartridge vs. Electric vs. DE Razors


Cartridge Razors:
Amazon's "Best Sellers in Shaving & Hair Removal Products" lists the Gillette Fusion Proglide as their #1 Best Seller. In the US, this is probably the most commonly purchased shaving product.

Razor: $10.59 (with 2 cartridges)

Blades: The best selling cartridge option is currently costing $20.49 for a pack of 8 ($2.57 each). For me these cartridges lasted about 1 week (3 or 4 good shaves ... YMMV). So, over a period of three years, I would need 156 cartridges. Two are included with the razor, but to cover three years of shaving, I'd have to also buy an additional 20 eight-packs of the cartridges.

Total 3-year cost of the most popular cartridge razor: $421
(note: currently prices for eight-packs of cartridges are very low ... see more below)

After 3 years: Based on Amazon's Best Sellers list, I suspect most people will then be buying some future model of Gillette cartridges. And whatever new cartridges it requires.

Cost for 30 years: $4,100 to $5,800 (estimated from current to average historical prices [see note below] for 195 eight-packs of cartridges ... plus 10 razors at ~$10 each)

NOTE (*UPDATED*): Cartridge prices vary during their product lifecycle. By memory and from this Amazon Price Tracker (ya gotta love the Internet), this same 8-pack of cartridges has historically (since January 2013) sold for about $29 ... so their current price seems generously low for estimating purposes. If these cartridges average $29 per eight-pack, then the 30-year TCO is more like $5,800)

NOTE: Many people seem to want to include the cost of shaving software (brushes, soaps, creams, oils, etc) when comparing cartridges to DEs ... I do not. Any wet shaving software can be used with either DEs or cartridges. Personally, after tons of experimentation, I use my DE with just plain water (sprayed on my face throughout the shave with a misting bottle).

Reference links:
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-...having-Hair-Removal-Products/zgbs/hpc/3778591
http://amzn.com/B00J2APFMW
http://amzn.com/B003983HZK


Electric Razors:
Amazon's "Best Sellers in Electric Shavers" lists the "Braun Series 3-340s Wet & Dry Electric Shaver" as their #1 Best Seller.

Razor: $39.95. It's box says "Shaver Built to Perform 7yrs" ... but yet it only has a "2 Year Limited Warranty (Foil and cutter block excluded)" ... so I'll compromise and estimate it to last the full duration of this 3 year comparison.

Blades: Braun recommends changing the electric razor’s blades "every 18 months as the cutting parts will gradually wear out over time". As my beard seems to be relatively tough, I'm going to estimate replacing the foil and cutter twice in three years. A "Dual Pack (2 Replacements)" currently costs $72.49

Total 3-year cost of the most popular electric razor: $113 (rounding up to the nearest dollar)

After 3 years: I suspect the razor's battery will be dead or something in the razor will break (or at least will relatively soon), and the whole unit will need replaced. Yes, the box implies that it could last for 7 years, but I think if they truly believed that, their warranty would be more than 2 years....

Cost for 30 years: $1,130 (10 purchases of $113)

NOTE: Compared to cartridges and DEs, the electric might save on shaving software (soaps, creams, etc). But then again, the battery will need recharged regularly ... and the electricity probably won't be free (unless you have your own solar panels). I'm not sure if the cost of electricity is comparable to less expensive shaving software ... perhaps someone else would like to look into that?

NOTE: I see popular electric razors sold by Amazon.com going for $300 ... and a very popular one costing about $160 (and their cutting mechanism replacement is more expensive too) ... but for this comparison I went with #1 Best Selling $40 brand/model

Reference Links:
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Health-Personal-Care-Electric-Shavers/zgbs/hpc/3778611
http://amzn.com/B004UQ6Q62
http://amzn.com/B00VW9EE1E



DE Razors:

Blades (**CORRECTED**): YMMV, but I typically use Personna "Comfort Coated" (aka Blue Labs). I think they are usually thought of as moderately sharp. I get two very good shaves from each blade using about two blades each week ... so, for simplicity I'll estimate about 300 blades over the 3 years. On Amazon you can buy 100 for $13.19 (note: many other brands are also going to be similar in price) ... so I'll round to $40 in blades for 3 years ... and $400 for 30 years.
http://amzn.com/B0077LAJT2


Frugal DE razor:
http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/Modern_Double-Edged_Safety_Razors_Ranked_by_Aggressiveness
(most with a single "$" in the "Price index" column should qualify)

Razor: $20... for this estimate, $20 buys a Feather Popular, or an EJ clone, or a Lord, and a few other models ... so lets go with $20 as the the cost of a razor

Total 3-year cost with frugal DE: $60 ... excluding any software (which for whatever you use would likely be the same for cartridge razors).

After 3 years: a plastic or zinc alloy razor might break with 3 years of regular use ... but its hard predict as there doesn't seem to be any real data on the subject. Eventually though ... I would plan on buying a replacement razor. For purposes of these estimates, I'm thinking of guestimating that a frugal DE razor will last an average of perhaps six years.

Cost for 30 years: $500 guessing I would have to purchase 5 frugal DE razors to cover 30 years of shaving (note: there is only circumstantial data to support this ... the averaged out TCO of frugal razors could be lower or higher)


Mid-priced DE Razor:
http://amzn.com/B004NAEP6I
(added to this comparison on 5/27/2015)

As the Merkur Progress adjustable DE does a good job at meeting much of the razor criteria that I recommend (below) for a 1st or 2nd razor, I thought I'd add this as an additional razor for TCO comparison.

Razor: $65 provides a much loved fractionally-adjustable razor head geometry with a very good reputation for shaving well. While it is still a less-durable chrome-plated zinc alloy razor, it being one fifth the price of the high-end razor (below) makes it a viable 1st or 2nd razor recommendation.

Total 3-year cost with Mid-priced DE: $105 ... excluding any software (which for whatever you use would likely be the same for cartridge razors).

After 3 years: While a zinc alloy razor could potentially break within ~3 years of regular use ... I have read of some well-maintained Merkur Progress razors lasting for 30 years of regular use. While some have speculated that the new alloys used might not last as long as the versions manufactured decades ago ... for purposes of these estimates, I'm thinking of guestimating that a Merkur Progress will last an average of nine years (compared to six for an average frugal DE razor).

Cost for 30 years: $595 guessing I would have to purchase 3 Merkur Progress razors to cover 30 years of shaving (note: there is only circumstantial data to support this ... the actual averaged out TCO of could be lower or higher)


High-End DE razor:
http://www.abovethetie.com/product/atlas-5-piece-set
(Wolfman, or LASSCo would also be excellent choices, but ATT seems to be the only one that currently offers a set of aggression-customizing baseplates that are both CNC machined (extremely precise), and uncoated/un-plated (extremely durable) stainless steel. Feather and iKon also offer plated/coated sintered stainless steel razors that are loved by many ... and iKon also offers a range of aggression-customizing baseplates)

Razor: $299 I bought my Above the Tie Atlas with M1, R1, and H1 baseplates. The price was a lot to me, and it was not an idle or impulsive purchase (you can Google for the questions and survey that I posted during my research). Through 3 different baseplates it provides for a wide range of aggressiveness preferences. The M1 plate being suitable for beginners and/or for those with a thin beard or sensitive skin. The R1 is in the middle, and the H1 is considered a very aggressive (but still comfortable) razor. In the last 18+ months, I believe my Atlas 5 piece set has already paid for itself in savings over the cartridges I was using.

Recently, this "CNC machined, unplated/uncoated stainless steel set which offers customizable aggressiveness" has become my recommended, ideal 1st or 2nd razor (as soon as you are committed to DE shaving, and of course only where financially feasible). IMHO this specification offers the best value. For a majority of shavers, I could see it being their first and last razor purchase, saving potentially hundreds of dollars in experimentation and replacements. For me it was my seventh experimental razor purchase ... where the prior seven razors together cost well over $200, and now I never use them. Not much value in that....

Unfortunately, my recommendation of a "CNC machined, unplated/uncoated stainless steel set which offers customizable aggressiveness" narrows down the entire list of available razors to just one manufacturer, but I would really like to encourage other machinists/companies to produce razors like this too.

Total 3-year cost with High-End DE: $360... excluding any software (which for whatever you use would likely be the same for cartridge razors).

After 3 years: I'll still have my razor. Even if I were to drop it on concrete (several times), I doubt the blade exposure would change by even 0.05 mm. In all likelihood it won't be damaged. It won't be corroded. It won't be sitting in a landfill.

Cost for 30 years: $700 ... if I don't succumb to purchasing more DE razors, the only cost to me will be roughly 27 more 100-packs of blades....

In 40-ish years (going by the numbers): my son will inherit my razor set, and it will still be usable and still customizable to his preference in aggressiveness. The ATT's stainless steel isn't coated or plated so it should facilitate easy DIY repairs (like removal of surface corrosion with a toothbrush). It should not only last the remaining half of my lifetime, but theoretically it should remain usable by my son, and his son, etc....


Summary of Total Cost of Ownership for 5 shaving solutions:
(note: rough and rounded US dollar estimates)

TCO over 3 years:
$500 for cartridge razor and cartridges (with a rough average on the cost of blades of their product lifecycle)
$360 for high-end DE razor and blades
$115 for a frugal electric razor and foil/cutter replacements
$105 for a mid-priced DE razor and blades
$60 for frugal DE razor and blades

TCO over 30 years:
$5,000 for cartridge razors and cartridges
$1,150 for frugal electric razors and foil/cutter replacements
$700 for high-end DE razor and blades
$595 for a mid-priced DE razor and blades
$500 for frugal DE razors and blades

Addendum:
As per coase's suggestion (below), a high-end DE razor paired with high-end DE blades would cost more like $390 for 3 years and $1,200 for 30 years.


Conclusion:
Over the long term, cartridge razors and even electric razors are far more expensive than DEs. So, if you are saving already saving hundreds of dollars in switching, why not use some of that to purchase a high-end DE razor?

I realize that for the average adult on Earth, $300 for a razor just isn't feasible. I'm only speculating that those who do find it feasible, I think some high end DE razors might provide an arguably better value.


Cheers,
Shawn

p.s. I didn't plan on and didn't really have time to write this today ... so hopefully my unreviewed logic isn't flawed, and my unedited writing style isn't too rough to follow?

p.p.s. Reflecting on this post, over the decades, Gillette's marketing managed to transform a ~$500 lifetime expense per shaver into a ~$5,000 lifetime expense. While I strongly dislike having been a victim of this myself, from an academic perspective, I have to begrudgingly tip my hat on their 10-fold profit increase generated from their pioneering of what has been coined the "razor and blades business model".

Cheers,
Shawn

p.s. I didn't plan on and didn't really have time to write this today ... so hopefully my unreviewed logic isn't flawed, and my unedited writing style isn't too rough to follow?-----

Wow! You did a great job!

When i was a kid i used my grampa's old DE razor. He used it daily with an old enamelled white tin to mix his snub roll of soap and with this he shaved every single day that i ever know him. Im 47 and have rediscovered DE razor shaving, the joy of getting a good lather, sealing up the odd booboo and after shave care as well as scents. Ill do this for the rest of mine now, money isnt the reason but the joy of manly accomplishment when i DE shave.

M41R, iKonOSS101, M37C, PhoenixDOC <this last one is getting shimmed for sure!

I have more than one knife in the draws, i use more than one DE to shave. The terrain demands it!

Very nice post. I'm only confused by this part.

Quote: "I get two very good shaves from each blade using about two blades each week ... so, estimating 78 blades over 3 years."

Wouldn't two blades a week average out to around 100 blades a year (or 104)?

Srhardy. Loved your post. Not sure what my grandpas shavedwith. It's great you have that razor. That's such a wonderful connection

Shawn,

WOW! What an outstanding examination and treatise on the merits of DE shaving. Thank you for compiling that and putting it in such a coherent report.

Your point on investing in ONE good quality razor and sticking with it is where it really maximizes savings. Anything beyond that is hobby/fun. That's great, but those who gawk at the idea of spending $185 (for a single ATT vs $299 for a 5-piece set) aren't looking very far ahead when they then buy numerous or dozens of razors, soaps, brushes, etc. If it fits your budget to do so that's just fine and it's fun for many to have all those options and choices. But if you're a minimalist at heart there's a strong argument for buying a quality kit (razor and brush).

In my case I figured out how to afford the ATT (it was a stretch, but I sold some misc things sitting around the house and scraped it together) and now that I have it there's no other razor that interests me in the least. I've experimented with several ATT plates, but beyond that the other two razors I'd used as starters have now been gifted away and I have just this one - and couldn't be happier. To me there is no other razor that can come close to it, hence no further razor acquisitions are necessary. I'm now just replacing soap and AS when needed, maybe try a different blade brand now and then, but I'm cruising in Shaving Paradise with my set-up.

There's going to be an experimentation stage in every shaver's "career" where he needs to figure out what works best. But at some point once you've found that magic combo...

coase said:

Very nice post. I'm only confused by this part.

Quote: "I get two very good shaves from each blade using about two blades each week ... so, estimating 78 blades over 3 years."

Wouldn't two blades a week average out to around 100 blades a year (or 104)?

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for catching that! I knew I was too tired and too rushed to research and write that up ... but I tried to anyway....

I believe it is corrected now.

Does everything else look correct?


Thanks!
Shawn

shawnsel said:

Thank you so much for catching that! I knew I was too tired and too rushed to research and write that up ... but I tried to anyway....

I believe it is corrected now.




Does everything else look correct?


Thanks!
Shawn

Click to expand...

Looks good. I would only add that -- to be fair -- many B&Bers like more expensive blades like Feathers, Med Preps, or Polsilvers. So I might double the blade cost or use the high end DE plus high end blades (let's call them $30 per hundred) to get a better sense of the relevant range. And though I like to order off Ebay, I would use higher prices to reflect the more typical costs of buying from a Stateside merchant.

coase said:

Looks good. I would only add that -- to be fair -- many B&Bers like more expensive blades like Feathers, Med Preps, or Polsilvers. So I might double the blade cost or use the high end DE plus high end blades (let's call them $30 per hundred) to get a better sense of the relevant range. And though I like to order off Ebay, I would use higher prices to reflect the more typical costs of buying from a Stateside merchant.

Click to expand...

A very good point. I've added this to the Summary of TCOs section:

shawnsel said:

Addendum:
As per coase's suggestion (below), a high-end DE razor paired with high-end DE blades would cost more like $390 for 3 years and $1,200 for 30 years.

Click to expand...

Thanks!
Shawn

I've been here close to a year and I don't remember ever seeing anyone say you have to spend a lot of money to get a good shave. On the contrary, there's a huge second hand market. I own a 5 piece ATT set. It's expensive, but the performance isn't significantly better than my EJ89. I bought it for the fit and finish factor. A great razor is something that works well for you, and that usually comes down to little more than head geometry--blade angle and exposure--and, to a lesser degree, weight.

The difference between a cheap soap and expensive soap are similar--once you find out how to get a good lather out of it, price doesn't really matter. That said, some are more comfortable than others, some have better ingredients than others and some definitely smell better than others.

IMO the biggest bang for your buck is the brush. While an ATT can shave the same (or worse) than an EJ89 and while Arko may be able to provide the same cushion and slickness as Mike's, the comfort and performance of a cheap boar brush is world's away from that which can be had with some of the better badgers. (This is all IMO & YMMV of course.)

But you're right--spend what you're comfortable spending with the understanding that spending more won't necessarily provide an objectively better shaving experience.

repete66219 said:

I've been here close to a year and I don't remember ever seeing anyone say you have to spend a lot of money to get a good shave. On the contrary, there's a huge second hand market. I own a 5 piece ATT set. It's expensive, but the performance isn't significantly better than my EJ89. I bought it for the fit and finish factor. A great razor is something that works well for you, and that usually comes down to little more than head geometry--blade angle and exposure--and, to a lesser degree, weight.

Click to expand...

I mostly agree. In the end, it's the blade doing the cutting ... the razor just holds the blade and provides a measure of safety and ease/intuitiveness to the blade's cutting motion and angle. From my own experience, my $4 RiMei was my favorite razor head until I got my ATT. My RiMei's head geometry worked better for me than my EJ89, Merkur Slant, Wilkinson Sword, RazoRock Little Bastone, and RazoRock SLAB.

However, I don't think the real benefit of a high-end razor is in its fit and finish...

Precision:
I believe that most high-end razors are also more microscopically consistent in their geometries than those produced by less expensive manufacturing methods. My RiMei works pretty well ... but I've seen pictures of others that were received with obvious differences to mine. While I don't think most other razor models suffer from that much deviation in their production ... I do suspect that many (maybe even most?) have a tenth of a millimeter or so of deviation in blade exposure.

A tenth of a millimeter sounds like it should be irrelevant ... but in a razor's blade exposure (note, I'm not referring to gap) it's a lot. This vintage New Salesman Training Manual from Gillette, shows on its 5th page a diagram where their adjustable razor goes from mild to aggressive through increasing the blade exposure by just 0.2 millimeters (and also a 10 degree difference in its steep shaving angle). (note: I'm assuming the measures on the diagram are quoted in inches, but here I've converted to millimeters)

Even in high end sintered razors, some problems have occurred. The old Feather AS-D1 (replaced 2-ish years ago by the AS-D2 model) received wildly different reviews, with some saying it was remarkably effective, while others said theirs couldn't shave the fuzz off a peach. In an interesting experiment, a shaving blogger found his Feather AS-D1 to be significantly better in shaving than an apparently defective AS-D1 that a reader mailed to him ... and yet when studying them, he could not visually tell any difference between the two razors.

Customizeable Aggression:
Also, the three aggression levels provided by a baseplate system has been a big benefit to me. Using the same handle and cap I was able to more easily learn to use more aggressive razors ... and for me I have found that I prefer aggressive razors. An adjustable or 5 piece set can replace a lot of razors in regards to a new(er) DE shaver finding what works best for him.

Longevity:
Uncoated/unplated stainless steel is I believe the most durable, and the most likely to survive many decades (or even centuries?) of regular use. It is very, very unlikely to crack its threaded post if dropped or over tightened. Raw stainless is also very corrosion resistant (although of course not completely so) plus it facilitates DIY repairs for any light corrosion or scratches.


To clarify, I'm not saying that you can't get a great shave with an inexpensive DE ... I'm only proposing that for many shavers, a high-end razor with a 30-year TCO of ~$700 may provide a better long-term value over a fairly similar 30-year TCO of ~$500 for a frugal DE (see calculations above).

And also, I'm saying that in the lifetime big picture of relative shaving costs ... paying $300 for a razor might not be the outrageously large cost that it initially seems to be.


Thoughts?


Cheers,
Shawn