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any ideas about a stamped star on Gillette Old Type base plate?

I´ve ask the same question in 2009, but there was no solution.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/114615-unknown-star-on-a-Old-Type-head?highlight=

Now I´ve seen the third razor with this stamped star on the base plate. Any ideas today?

The first one I´ve received from England
The second one I´ve received from Australia
The third on are pictures from another collector, who has ask me. I believe it´s from a french set.

$2015-05-02 19-28-10_0002.jpg

$2015-05-02 19-30-46_0015.jpg

$1918 Pocket Edition 501 Canada-01.jpg

$1918 Pocket Edition 501 Canada-09.jpg
 
I'm curious too. I've seen those marks but have no idea what they mean. I believe Porter, Mike and a few others discussed this in some other thread, English Serial Numbers or Gillette Company History Geek Out ... not sure.

If anyone knows, that'll be Porter or Mike.
 
Even more interesting, the stars look to be different between your two sets ! Thanks for asking to the community, and no we wait... :]
 
When I was researching silver hallmarks for the "Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers" in relation to the G-in-D or G-in-Square marking, I came across references to the star be used in a similar fashion for silver products in Italy. I formed the opinion that the star is possibly indicating a razor destined for the Italian market, in the same way as the G in a cartouche or square is indicative of a razor destined for the French market.

Cheers, George
 
When I was researching silver hallmarks for the "Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers" in relation to the G-in-D or G-in-Square marking, I came across references to the star be used in a similar fashion for silver products in Italy. I formed the opinion that the star is possibly indicating a razor destined for the Italian market, in the same way as the G in a cartouche or square is indicative of a razor destined for the French market.

Cheers, George

That's interesting, George.

However, Cha-Wing's example has both the star and the G-in-D mark, so where was this razor sold, Italy or France?
 
That's interesting, George.

However, Cha-Wing's example has both the star and the G-in-D mark, so where was this razor sold, Italy or France?

Hmm, not quite sure?........not me, Gillette at the time. Question calls for speculation, but marks were for prospective market and not neccessarily where they were actually sold. Better too many marks than not enough? A retailer on the border of France and Italy perhaps?

Cheers, George
 
Hmm, not quite sure?........not me, Gillette at the time. Question calls for speculation, but marks were for prospective market and not neccessarily where they were actually sold. Better too many marks than not enough? A retailer on the border of France and Italy perhaps?

Cheers, George

Yup, your guess is as good as any other at this point.
 
I recall that when the GinD question was originally raised there were a number of threads devoted to guessing what it may mean. One popular theory was that it indicated the razor had been returned for repair. The hallmarks register suggested that the D was actually a cartouche and, along with a square, was used by the French on their plated goods, both silver and gold. In the "Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers" thread there was also some discussion as to whether the mark was a requirement on razors or just accomodating an expectation by the French on markings that should appear on quality products. Its meaning is now generally accepted as a razor prospectively for the French market rather than the European market, which was the original guess. Whether a requirement or an expectation, the markings were probably of relevance only to those in the market concerned (and to collectors 100 years later), so I dare say an extra marking wouldn't have caused any undue concern at the time. Since the Star was used on Italian plating I am inclined to look at the Italian market theory as the most likely based on evidence available so far and subject to contradiction should more compelling evidence be presented. JMO.

Cheers, George
 
I recall that when the GinD question was originally raised there were a number of threads devoted to guessing what it may mean. One popular theory was that it indicated the razor had been returned for repair. The hallmarks register suggested that the D was actually a cartouche and, along with a square, was used by the French on their plated goods, both silver and gold. In the "Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers" thread there was also some discussion as to whether the mark was a requirement on razors or just accomodating an expectation by the French on markings that should appear on quality products. Its meaning is now generally accepted as a razor prospectively for the French market rather than the European market, which was the original guess. Whether a requirement or an expectation, the markings were probably of relevance only to those in the market concerned (and to collectors 100 years later), so I dare say an extra marking wouldn't have caused any undue concern at the time. Since the Star was used on Italian plating I am inclined to look at the Italian market theory as the most likely based on evidence available so far and subject to contradiction should more compelling evidence be presented. JMO.

Cheers, George

Yes, we know the G-in-D/square was actually a requirement of the French government, Porter posted an old French document stating exactly that.

Can you provide a link, or post something related to the star being used on Italian plating, that would be interesting.

The G-in-D/square seems to be far more common than the star. Based on population only, the French and Italian markets are about the same size, so I think we should be seeing these stars more frequently?
Also, the G-in-D was used on a wider range of razors - Old Type, New Improved and NEWs. I believe we've seen these stars on Old Types only? Of course, it could have been an Italian requirement during the Old Type period only. Probably a lot of stuff changed when Mussolini became Prime Minister in 1922. :lol:

Just a couple of thoughts, George. Before you say it, I am NOT saying your theory is wrong. :lol: :tongue_sm
 
Yes, we know the G-in-D/square was actually a requirement of the French government, Porter posted an old French document stating exactly that.

Can you provide a link, or post something related to the star being used on Italian plating, that would be interesting.

The G-in-D/square seems to be far more common than the star. Based on population only, the French and Italian markets are about the same size, so I think we should be seeing these stars more frequently?
Also, the G-in-D was used on a wider range of razors - Old Type, New Improved and NEWs. I believe we've seen these stars on Old Types only? Of course, it could have been an Italian requirement during the Old Type period only. Probably a lot of stuff changed when Mussolini became Prime Minister in 1922. :lol:

Just a couple of thoughts, George. Before you say it, I am NOT saying your theory is wrong. :lol: :tongue_sm

I must have missed the old French document posted by Porter. Mike's comments here:
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...ingle-Rings-with-British-Patent-Numbers/page2
make sense to me.

By the way Mike, does your new avatar indicate that you have come to the dark side (straights), and where can I get one of those cool harness mirrors?

Early Morning - good suggestion, but there are pre-WW1 razors with the star marking.

Edgar, you make a very good point regarding the paucity of razors bearing the star compared to the GinD. Here is the link to the Italian plating site:

http://www.925-1000.com/Fitalian_marks_01.html

On reviewing that site I'm thinking that the star as a plating mark is an overstatement - perhaps more like a symbol of the Italian republic. As you say, maybe the rise of Il Duce took the gloss off the idea?

Edgar, the very thought of accusing you of saying that my theory is wrong had not even begun to even consider crossing my mind. Besides, it's only a idea that may grow up to be a theory if fed on enough discussion.

Cheers, George
 
I recall that when the GinD question was originally raised there were a number of threads devoted to guessing what it may mean. One popular theory was that it indicated the razor had been returned for repair. The hallmarks register suggested that the D was actually a cartouche and, along with a square, was used by the French on their plated goods, both silver and gold. In the "Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers" thread there was also some discussion as to whether the mark was a requirement on razors or just accomodating an expectation by the French on markings that should appear on quality products. Its meaning is now generally accepted as a razor prospectively for the French market rather than the European market, which was the original guess. Whether a requirement or an expectation, the markings were probably of relevance only to those in the market concerned (and to collectors 100 years later), so I dare say an extra marking wouldn't have caused any undue concern at the time. Since the Star was used on Italian plating I am inclined to look at the Italian market theory as the most likely based on evidence available so far and subject to contradiction should more compelling evidence be presented. JMO.

Cheers, George

I don't think a company would fool around repairing a razor. They would send a new replacement. Faster, easier, and cheaper.
 
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I notice these three examples we found are from the same "G..." production year (1918 if I'm not mistaken). Maybe it can help for the research ?
Anyway excellent discussion here gents, thanks, please continue !
 
I notice these three examples we found are from the same "G..." production year (1918 if I'm not mistaken). Maybe it can help for the research ?
Anyway excellent discussion here gents, thanks, please continue !

The "G" serial is in U.S.A. 1918, not in UK
 
I must have missed the old French document posted by Porter. Mike's comments here:
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...ingle-Rings-with-British-Patent-Numbers/page2
make sense to me.

By the way Mike, does your new avatar indicate that you have come to the dark side (straights), and where can I get one of those cool harness mirrors?

Early Morning - good suggestion, but there are pre-WW1 razors with the star marking.

Edgar, you make a very good point regarding the paucity of razors bearing the star compared to the GinD. Here is the link to the Italian plating site:

http://www.925-1000.com/Fitalian_marks_01.html

On reviewing that site I'm thinking that the star as a plating mark is an overstatement - perhaps more like a symbol of the Italian republic. As you say, maybe the rise of Il Duce took the gloss off the idea?

Edgar, the very thought of accusing you of saying that my theory is wrong had not even begun to even consider crossing my mind. Besides, it's only a idea that may grow up to be a theory if fed on enough discussion.

Cheers, George

Here's Porter's comment:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...-British-Patent-Numbers?p=6540547#post6540547

I'm not really sure, but I'm more inclined to think that things just got a little loosey-goosey by the early 1900s. I've found references like this one that seem to suggest that makers didn't always pay much attention to this requirement:



Muddled through with Google Translate and my own non-existent knowledge of French: This "mandatory" mark is often "forgotten" by manufacturers who deem their own brand mark sufficient.

Thanks for sharing that link to the Italian Hallmarks, George. One thing I noticed, they started using the star only in 1968, so I guess the star on these Old Types has a different meaning.

$star.png



I don't think a company would fool around repairing a razor. They would send a new replacement. Faster, easier, and cheaper.

Seems like they did repair razors, but if you have any proof that this is wrong, please share.

1920

K927217‑K999999
M1‑M999999
N1‑N459887

Annual sales exceed 2.1M razors in 1920. "L" was not used as a serial number prefix as it had already been used to stamp razors returned for repair.

The only indications that a razor was repaired at the factory are an LXXXXXX serial number in addition to a regular serial number. One set of numbers on each side of the upper guard plate. I have a couple Pocket Edition sets with repair numbers as well as the normal serial numbers.


According to Krumholz, they also stamped a secondary serial with an "X" suffix on repaired razors during the New Improved era, but I don't believe I've ever seen one of those to be able to confirm that for myself.
 
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By the way Mike, does your new avatar indicate that you have come to the dark side (straights), and where can I get one of those cool harness mirrors?

No, just a reference to http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...ing-Harness-quot-Carries-Brush-Mug-and-Mirror — which should answer your second question too.

Back on topic, I agree that this star marking probably indicated silver plate for the continental market. On the available evidence I tend to think it predated formal regulation, reflecting industry practice and customer expectations more that official legal requirements. In some cases the importer or retailer might have added their own marks to reflect local rules or expectations.

Razors with multiple markings of this type are interesting, but may not mean anything. Everyone makes mistakes now and then.
 
Thanks for sharing that link to the Italian Hallmarks, George. One thing I noticed, they started using the star only in 1968, so I guess the star on these Old Types has a different meaning.

Thanks for the links Edgar. The use in 1968 was the reason for me suggesting that I originally overstated the relationship to actual hallmarks. I'm now thinking that at the time of it's establishment the Republic was being associated with a star for historical reasons, and that is what Gillette may have been aiming to reflect. I'm also inclined to agree with Porter's "loosey-goosey" comment.

On the available evidence I tend to think it predated formal regulation, reflecting industry practice and customer expectations more that official legal requirements.

Razors with multiple markings of this type are interesting, but may not mean anything. Everyone makes mistakes now and then.

I am in total agreement with what Mike says here, and he enuciates it far better than I. I also like the "mistake" possibility - made early Monday morning perhaps?

Cheers, George
 
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