Do any mainstream, not Artisan soap makes use Bentonite clay?

Title says it all, I guess not quite, should read soap makers.

I have yet to see clay used in a mass produced shave soap, it does seem to be more used by Artisan soap makers.

Never have I used a soap with clay in it until I received some a couple of days ago. As for post shave feel, I gave it a 4.5, otherwise not very good. Did not seem to have the cushion or slickness that I seem to get with all other shave soaps. I have only used it twice, once with my synthetic, and today with my Omega 49. It was quite pasty and adding water did not seem to help, I then did a couple of swirls on another shave soap and lather exploded. I am going to give it a few more tries and with a wetter brush to see if it performs better but so far I am not a fan of clay in shave soaps. I have a feeling that if I used it daily, I would find it to be very drying.

Maybe there is a reason why clay is not added to most shave soaps?

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that there are a lot of fallacies in your post about bentonite clay. The amount of clay added (if the soapmaker knows what he/she is doing) is nowhere near enough to kill a lather or to dry out your face. The purpose of the clay is actually to make the lather slightly slicker. It should have no other effect on the lather when it is used properly.

You could definitely use a soap that contained bentonite clay on a daily basis and not experience any drying effect whatsoever. In fact, one of the most moisturizing shave soaps on the market, one that is almost universally praised for having about the best post-shave feel of any soap, uses bentonite clay. So, I would suggest that if you feel the soap you are using is drying, it is likely not due to the addition of bentonite.

kingfisher said:

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that there are a lot of fallacies in your post about bentonite clay. The amount of clay added (if the soapmaker knows what he/she is doing) is nowhere near enough to kill a lather or to dry out your face. The purpose of the clay is actually to make the lather slightly slicker. It should have no other effect on the lather when it is used properly.

You could definitely use a soap that contained bentonite clay on a daily basis and not experience any drying effect whatsoever. In fact, one of the most moisturizing shave soaps on the market, one that is almost universally praised for having about the best post-shave feel of any soap, uses bentonite clay. So, I would suggest that if you feel the soap you are using is drying, it is likely not due to the addition of bentonite.

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I do not believe I made any fallacies, just my opinion that I did not miss bentonite clay in any of the shave soaps and found them all to be slick and provide cushion without it, maybe the soap maker did not know how to utilize it. What is the shave soap you are talking about, since it was such a positive statement, one should name them.

Maybe a little off topic? If I've Ever used a soap that had it in it, I was unaware, but we use bentonite for various applications at work, and it can be some of the slipperiest, snottiest stuff you've ever handled. That is why drillers, (well, directional borers etc...) use it. It's a crazy good natural lubricant.

Clay can be a great additive if it's done properly. And there are so many additional benefits from clays beyond bentonite or white kaolin that are often overlooked.

That said, clays got a bad stigma from the initial advent of artisan shave soaps. That is, the common early assumption on how to make a shave soap was to take bath soap and add clay to it. It then evolved into M&P soap with clay. And at that point, people were all but over clay as an ingredient and thus, the stigma was born. That's why (IMO) you don't see it used too much in high-end artisan soaps.

As for non-artisan shave soaps, many of them follow recipes that are very old (pre-clay as a soap additive). As for newer, mass-produced soaps, they tend to follow more conventional bath soap lines with ingredients like detergents, etc.

It sounds like the soap you got was either a poor recipe to begin with and/or had too much clay in it. I've seen many pinterest/blog shave soap recipes that would yield such a product.

j-mt said:

That said, clays got a bad stigma from the initial advent of artisan shave soaps. That is, the common early assumption on how to make a shave soap was to take bath soap and add clay to it.


It sounds like the soap you got was either a poor recipe to begin with and/or had too much clay in it. I've seen many pinterest/blog shave soap recipes that would yield such a product.

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+1 on all of this.

-Dave

Dave at Benton Clay, a vendor here, used to use Bentonite clay but I think he is in the process of reformulating. I found his earlier soaps to be pretty slick and liked them a great deal. Haven't tried the new stuff yet, as I think it is still curing.

shavetech said:

I do not believe I made any fallacies

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Assuming any trend on any topic based on a single data point is a fallacy. E.g. "I tried a shave soap with clay, it didn't work out for me, therefore clay isn't a good shave soap ingredient". You also have to be careful with causality.

j-mt said:

It sounds like the soap you got was either a poor recipe to begin with and/or had too much clay in it.

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+1

The soap alluded to, above, is Mystic Water, and I would have to concur with the sentiments that it, probably, has the best post-shave of any soap I have tried even with the added bentonite clay.
Nonetheless, if you were enjoying the other soaps, there is no need to use any with the clay in them. As long as you are enjoying your shaves is what is most important.

celestino said:

+1

The soap alluded to, above, is Mystic Water, and I would have to concur with the sentiments that it, probably, has the best post-shave of any soap I have tried even with the added bentonite clay.
Nonetheless, if you were enjoying the other soaps, there is no need to use any with the clay in them. As long as you are enjoying your shaves is what is most important.

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+1. MW is top notch stuff. I'm not sure all of her formulations have clay, but it certainly doesn't hurt the performance.

RazoRock Mudder Focker is another extremely well regarded soap that uses clay.

tclobaugh said:

+1. MW is top notch stuff. I'm not sure all of her formulations have clay, but it certainly doesn't hurt the performance...

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I did earlier use a puck of Mystic Water Vanilla Sandalwood that contains red Moroccan clay (and lanolin and allantoin). It had a peculiar reddish color that I immediately associated to the mountain road view outside Agadir on the Atlantic coast of Western Morocco.

The glide was IMHO even better than the very high normal standard of Michelles soaps. Admittedly I don't know if if was the clay or the allantoin/lanolin in play to do this, and I don't particularly care: I will reorder that one!

The Vanilla Sandalwood has both bentonite clay AND red Moroccan clay...and several people have commented on the slipperiness and glide of that particular soap. The use of clay is one that people have strong opinions about so I don't want to stoke controversy here except to say that clay alone does not make soap good for shaving. However, the very small amount of clay used in a shaving soap should not contribute to dry skin, but a harsh soap will.

Out of the over 100 Artisan soaps, I do wonder why celestino singled out Mystic Water, well it was their Irish Traveller.

In all fairness to the soap itself, it is a bit more difficult to lather with a 1/2 ounce sample, I got six so I am going to try some others. I held it in my hand and gave it a good load time, I will try more water tomorrow and see if this helps, like I said in my OP, I went directly to another soap and it exploded, so maybe it was a combo effect because I did not rinse brush first.

I'd recommend pressing the sample into a small bowl so that the surface area approximates the size of a regular puck, even if it's thin you'll get more of an idea of what a full puck would lather like. If you'd like to contact me for some other suggestions, I'm happy to answer emails. From your description, it sounds like more water was needed.

shavetech said:

Out of the over 100 Artisan soaps, I do wonder why celestino singled out Mystic Water, well it was their Irish Traveller.

In all fairness to the soap itself, it is a bit more difficult to lather with a 1/2 ounce sample, I got six so I am going to try some others. I held it in my hand and gave it a good load time, I will try more water tomorrow and see if this helps, like I said in my OP, I went directly to another soap and it exploded, so maybe it was a combo effect because I did not rinse brush first.

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eyebright said:

I'd recommend pressing the sample into a small bowl so that the surface area approximates the size of a regular puck, even if it's thin you'll get more of an idea of what a full puck would lather like. If you'd like to contact me for some other suggestions, I'm happy to answer emails. From your description, it sounds like more water was needed.

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Please understand, mine was not a complaint, nor did I expect you to get singled out. I have had a curiosity since the MdC clone a soap thread, about how soap is made and what goes into it.

I have a little plastic ice cream cup that will work perfect for smashing it down into, in fact I will give it a whirl now. The first time I used my synthetic and it did work better but I am going to try it again with the 49. Thanks

The old AoS tallow-first soaps had clay and they are excellent. I still have a few pucks in reserve that I use sparingly.

I'm trying to figure out how to formulate with fewer ingredients, so I'm not sure if I'll add bentonite back into my soaps yet.

Bentonite is said to absorb about 12x its mass in moisture so it is thought to bring more moisture directly to the whiskers.

But the thing is... that's exactly what a good lather is supposed to do, only better: a good lather is like a cloud that becomes pregnant with moisture as you slowly incorporate air and water during the lathering process. Then you have this big wet cloud that you bring to your whiskers breaking the surface tension of the oils on your whiskers allowing those whiskers in turn to swell with hydration, making them more cleanly shaveable by the razor.

I don't think bentonite can redeem a bad soap but it may well make a great soap even greater. It sure sounds like Mystic Waters has found that to be the case!

Clay or No Clay that is the question.... I was wondering about this subject as this summer I have visited several farmers markets in Oregon and Washington during my travels and always seek out the inevitable soap maker to see if this one has a shaving specific soap... they never do... but as the conversation usually goes they say they have done some research and are looking to add clay to "their" recipe to create a shaving soap. If it was really this easy wouldn't they all be doing this already.

What is the correct scientific ingredient jump to take bath soap to shaving soap? Anybody know this one? I've heard that olive oil is a lather killer and it seems that most farmers market artisan soaps rely heavily on olive oil.

I'm just trying to get more educated myself so when I get into these conversations in the future I can do more than smile and walk away.

My experience has been that when done correctly, clay as an additive can contribute greatly to a soap. Sterling, PannaCrema, and MF Razorock all use clays of different variety and all are considered very slick and protective and I get a great post shave feeling from all three. MF in fact has performed stellar for me. My only complaint with MF is that I use it so fast due to its softness but I love the soap.

steelhead52 said:

My experience has been that when done correctly, clay as an additive can contribute greatly to a soap. Sterling, PannaCrema, and MF Razorock all use clays of different variety and all are considered very slick and protective and I get a great post shave feeling from all three. MF in fact has performed stellar for me. My only complaint with MF is that I use it so fast due to its softness but I love the soap.

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Of these soaps the only one I have used is PC soaps: the Vetiver and San Francesco formulations. Both are excellent shaving soaps providing a smooth, comfortable shave with plenty of lather.