coated vs un-coated blades

germanshepherd · Feb 21, 2015

I think I am coming to a conclusion but wondering if anyone else feels the same. when I shave with a coated blade (astra SP for example)the feel and sound of the shave seems smoother but I also seem to get more irritation and minor cuts.
When I use a regular stainless blade that is not coated, the sound and feel of the blade through the razor feels rough, sounds hollow etc but I seem to get a better shave overall with non coated blade.

so basically the shaving experiencing feels better with a coated blade but the end result seems better with a non-coated regular stainless steel blade. I know YMMV but wondering how many others feel the same way .

Mick · Feb 21, 2015

I find that my technique allows me to use anything without issues.

I will agree that coated blades are smoother but the coating wears off after a few shaves

germanshepherd · Feb 21, 2015

turtle said:
I find that my technique allows me to use anything without issues.

I will agree that coated blades are smoother but the coating wears off after a few shaves

Totally agree with your statement, technique is key. My observations are pretty much just shaving like normal with both types of blades. if I pay more attention and concentrate on my technique, I can get a close shave with no cuts or weeps with the coated blade but if just shave without thinking too much of what I am doing etc, the non-coated blade works a little better for me. I am pleased with both types though..

mblakele · Feb 21, 2015

All modern stainless blades are coated, I think. I have tried some pre-1962 stainless blades that were probably uncoated, and they were not comfortable at all.

What are these blades that you believe to be uncoated?

Cash_Stronomer · Feb 21, 2015

I'm not sure I can really tell the difference? To me a good blade is a good blade, regardless of the packaging. My Personna are 'Platinum', My Nacet's are just 'Stainless', and My Gillette Sword's state nothing at all except the blade brand. Their all fine. In my personal experience, the only real differences between blades, is just that some are good and some are bad, depending how cheaply their produced.

germanshepherd · Feb 21, 2015

mblakele said:
All modern stainless blades are coated, I think. I have tried some pre-1962 stainless blades that were probably uncoated, and they were not comfortable at all.

What are these blades that you believe to be uncoated?

I have Astra's that say platinum and Astra's that just say stainless steel. Have sharks that say chrome and sharks that say stainless steel etc. I thought the ones that just say stainless steel are not coated. I noticed many brands have a blade that just says stainless steel and a similar blade that lists a coating of some sort.

frstplce · Feb 22, 2015

I'm guessing they are all coated to some extent. Probably just a single layer coating like PTFE or something on the stainless ones, up to the kitchen sink that is Derby with chromium, ceramic, tungsten, platinum and polymer.

I have some vintage Silver Star "Duridium" blades from around the early 50's. These early stainless blades were uncoated, but they are good for giving you an appreciation of modern coatings.

germanshepherd · Feb 22, 2015

frstplce said:
I'm guessing they are all coated to some extent. Probably just a single layer coating like PTFE or something on the stainless ones, up to the kitchen sink that is Derby with chromium, ceramic, tungsten, platinum and polymer.

I have some vintage Silver Star "Duridium" blades from around the early 50's. These early stainless blades were uncoated, but they are good for giving you an appreciation of modern coatings.

Thanks for the info. I have some vintage blades and will be interesting to see how they stack up to today's modern blades.

mblakele · Feb 22, 2015

germanshepherd said:
I have Astra's that say platinum and Astra's that just say stainless steel. Have sharks that say chrome and sharks that say stainless steel etc. I thought the ones that just say stainless steel are not coated. I noticed many brands have a blade that just says stainless steel and a similar blade that lists a coating of some sort.

I think that is just market segmentation. By framing the plain "stainless steel" blades that way, they encourage you to upgrade to the more expensive blades.

Here is a microscope image of a plain old "Stainless Steel" Personna, made a few years ago in the USA. Note the dark band. Then look at what corking did to that dark band. All modern blades have a band like that. I am pretty sure that it is the PTFE coating: aka Teflon, Vydax, etc.

frstplce said:
I'm guessing they are all coated to some extent. Probably just a single layer coating like PTFE or something on the stainless ones, up to the kitchen sink that is Derby with chromium, ceramic, tungsten, platinum and polymer.

I have some vintage Silver Star "Duridium" blades from around the early 50's. These early stainless blades were uncoated, but they are good for giving you an appreciation of modern coatings.

I agree. Here is an image of one of those Silver Star Duridium. Unlike the Personna above, there is no dark band. I agree that these are pretty uncomfortable to shave with. Maybe something about the grain structure of stainless steel? Or the passive layer of Cr2O3 on the surface?

Stainless blades have been around since ca. 1930, but they were not commercially successful. Part of this was probably cost: disposable carbon steel blades were already pretty expensive and few wanted to pay a premium. But I think they were also less comfortable than the cheaper carbon steel blades. Attempts included the Gillette Kroman, Darwin, and Silver Star Duridium. In about 1959 Gillette came out with an early coated blade, the Super Blue or Blue Extra. It was still carbon steel, so it would rust. The coating was fragile, and it was more expensive than ordinary blades. So it did not do very well either, but it established the convention that "super" or "extra" indicates a blade with an anti-friction coating.

Then ca. 1962 Wilkinson-Sword introduced PTFE-based coated stainless blades, and everything changed. They took the market by storm. Within a few years Personna, Schick, and finally Gillette were also making coated stainless blades. From what I can tell the PTFE coating made all the difference. Since then blade makers have tried new processes and variations, but I believe that any modern stainless DE blade intended for shaving will have an anti-friction coating akin to PTFE.

If there are multiple coatings, the PTFE-like coating will always be the last one to go on. That youtube video on how blades are made covers this: they process the steel, make the edge, then add any hardness coating like platinum or chrome or both, then finally a coating like PTFE on top. Some of the word soup can also be adhesion layers: a sort of primer to help the layers stick together. That may be how Derby uses whatever they mean by "ceramic". Technically PTFE is a kind of polymer, and sometimes the label prefers not to say exactly. Gillette sometimes calls it a "telomer" coating.

How long do coatings last? YMMV, of course. Most of the old patents say something like "several shaves". My own opinion is that cheap blades are often made pretty cheaply, and the coating can outlast the steel. Here is one of the old Walmart Wilkinson blades after just two shaves. Apparently my beard did some damage to the poor edge, but the dark band of PTFE is still visible.

However the better class of blades hold up better, and that means the coating is done before the edge has gone. Sometimes the coating itself may be sturdier than gents think, but a buildup of soap scum and other gunk can reduce its effectiveness. This gets into blade cleaning or stropping, trying to remove the gunk without hurting the coating or the edge. Here is a Super Iridium after 11 shaves:

No matter what we do the anti-friction coating will become less effective as we use the blade. Over time it will feel more and more like an uncoated stainless blade. At some point in that process we decide the blade is "done", but YMMV on where that point is. Some gents will drop the blade as soon as they notice any change, while others will keep going.

With the best blades, my own limit seems to be somewhere around 10-20 shaves. At this point I have tried almost all of the popular vintage blades, too. Even a P74 is no better for me than the best modern blades. Cheaper blades are done after just 2-3 shaves, maybe because the edge is degrading as fast as the coating. But mostly I use my favorite (modern and vintage) blades, and change them every 5-7 shaves. In that scenario I think coating wear is probably more important than edge wear. YMMV.

germanshepherd · Feb 22, 2015

Excellent detail and information mblakele, this was an eye opener. I actually watched the how its made vid today before I saw your post and made me realize they do put the anti friction coating after putting on the hardness coating. I was mistaking anti friction coating and hardness coatings and now I know the difference.
I actually ordered a 10 pack of the Croma's that were featured in the How its made vid to add to my sampling packs.

frstplce · Feb 22, 2015

mblakele, thank you for that very informative post. I'd never seen the picture of the uncoated Silver Star. It sorta makes the shave with those blades make more sense to me.

I can't say that I've tried quite as many blades, but within the modern blades, I completely agree about the differences between cheaper and more premium blades.

mullard · Mar 9, 2019

mblakele said:
I think that is just market segmentation. By framing the plain "stainless steel" blades that way, they encourage you to upgrade to the more expensive blades.

Here is a microscope image of a plain old "Stainless Steel" Personna, made a few years ago in the USA. Note the dark band. Then look at what corking did to that dark band. All modern blades have a band like that. I am pretty sure that it is the PTFE coating: aka Teflon, Vydax, etc.

I agree. Here is an image of one of those Silver Star Duridium. Unlike the Personna above, there is no dark band. I agree that these are pretty uncomfortable to shave with. Maybe something about the grain structure of stainless steel? Or the passive layer of Cr2O3 on the surface?

Stainless blades have been around since ca. 1930, but they were not commercially successful. Part of this was probably cost: disposable carbon steel blades were already pretty expensive and few wanted to pay a premium. But I think they were also less comfortable than the cheaper carbon steel blades. Attempts included the Gillette Kroman, Darwin, and Silver Star Duridium. In about 1959 Gillette came out with an early coated blade, the Super Blue or Blue Extra. It was still carbon steel, so it would rust. The coating was fragile, and it was more expensive than ordinary blades. So it did not do very well either, but it established the convention that "super" or "extra" indicates a blade with an anti-friction coating.

Then ca. 1962 Wilkinson-Sword introduced PTFE-based coated stainless blades, and everything changed. They took the market by storm. Within a few years Personna, Schick, and finally Gillette were also making coated stainless blades. From what I can tell the PTFE coating made all the difference. Since then blade makers have tried new processes and variations, but I believe that any modern stainless DE blade intended for shaving will have an anti-friction coating akin to PTFE.

If there are multiple coatings, the PTFE-like coating will always be the last one to go on. That youtube video on how blades are made covers this: they process the steel, make the edge, then add any hardness coating like platinum or chrome or both, then finally a coating like PTFE on top. Some of the word soup can also be adhesion layers: a sort of primer to help the layers stick together. That may be how Derby uses whatever they mean by "ceramic". Technically PTFE is a kind of polymer, and sometimes the label prefers not to say exactly. Gillette sometimes calls it a "telomer" coating.

How long do coatings last? YMMV, of course. Most of the old patents say something like "several shaves". My own opinion is that cheap blades are often made pretty cheaply, and the coating can outlast the steel. Here is one of the old Walmart Wilkinson blades after just two shaves. Apparently my beard did some damage to the poor edge, but the dark band of PTFE is still visible.

However the better class of blades hold up better, and that means the coating is done before the edge has gone. Sometimes the coating itself may be sturdier than gents think, but a buildup of soap scum and other gunk can reduce its effectiveness. This gets into blade cleaning or stropping, trying to remove the gunk without hurting the coating or the edge. Here is a Super Iridium after 11 shaves:

No matter what we do the anti-friction coating will become less effective as we use the blade. Over time it will feel more and more like an uncoated stainless blade. At some point in that process we decide the blade is "done", but YMMV on where that point is. Some gents will drop the blade as soon as they notice any change, while others will keep going.

With the best blades, my own limit seems to be somewhere around 10-20 shaves. At this point I have tried almost all of the popular vintage blades, too. Even a P74 is no better for me than the best modern blades. Cheaper blades are done after just 2-3 shaves, maybe because the edge is degrading as fast as the coating. But mostly I use my favorite (modern and vintage) blades, and change them every 5-7 shaves. In that scenario I think coating wear is probably more important than edge wear. YMMV.

Superb information and analysis!

Bogeyman · Mar 9, 2019

mblakele said:
...With the best blades, my own limit seems to be somewhere around 10-20 shaves. At this point I have tried almost all of the popular vintage blades, too. Even a P74 is no better for me than the best modern blades. Cheaper blades are done after just 2-3 shaves, maybe because the edge is degrading as fast as the coating. But mostly I use my favorite (modern and vintage) blades, and change them every 5-7 shaves. In that scenario I think coating wear is probably more important than edge wear. YMMV.

Bingo. That is why a hardened edge aids the shaves while the coating wears down. I concur that the "Golden Age" blades were very, very good, but their sputtering processes then were Stone Age compared to today. The P74 lasted yes, but it never imparted the smoothness of a Gillette Platinum Plus or a Schick Plus Platinum IMO. Today, we are living in the "Platinum Age" of DE/SE blades. Top tier modern blades are impeccable and adjusted for inflation far cheaper than in the "Golden Age".

Mouser · Mar 10, 2019

Bogeyman said:
Bingo. That is why a hardened edge aids the shaves while the coating wears down. I concur that the "Golden Age" blades were very, very good, but their sputtering processes then were Stone Age compared to today. The P74 lasted yes, but it never imparted the smoothness of a Gillette Platinum Plus or a Schick Plus Platinum IMO. Today, we are living in the "Platinum Age" of DE/SE blades. Top tier modern blades are impeccable and adjusted for inflation far cheaper than in the "Golden Age".

Everyone here knows my thoughts about the superiority of vintage blades so I won't gi into that and the many reasons why they were more expensive then, adjusted for inflation but aside from quality reasons there's the fact of where they were made then as opposed to now and the significant difference in labor costs.

mullard · Mar 10, 2019

Mouser said:
Everyone here knows my thoughts about the superiority of vintage blades so I won't gi into that and the many reasons why they were more expensive then, adjusted for inflation but aside from quality reasons there's the fact of where they were made then as opposed to now and the significant difference in labor costs.

Excellent point made by Mouser. I have shaved with many many many different modern and vintage blades over the years. I have found that the golden era of stainless blades such as Made in England Wilkinson blades to be superior to anything made today. However, I do appreciate that there are modern blades such as Personna Lab Blues, Med Prep, and Asta blades that can provide an excellent shave; however, when compared to Golden Era blades such as Made in England Wilkinsons, Swedish Gillettes, Plus Platinum Schicks, they without a doubt are not on the same level in regards to overall quality. For example, what current production blade is equal to or better than a Made in England Wilkinson Light Brigade blade? Personally, I feel the answer to that are there aren’t any. Mullard

pdieten · Mar 10, 2019

mullard said:
Excellent point made by Mouser. I have shaved with many many many different modern and vintage blades over the years. I have found that the golden era of stainless blades such as Made in England Wilkinson blades to be superior to anything made today. However, I do appreciate that there are modern blades such as Personna Lab Blues, Med Prep, and Asta blades that can provide an excellent shave; however, when compared to Golden Era blades such as Made in England Wilkinsons, Swedish Gillettes, Plus Platinum Schicks, they without a doubt are not on the same level in regards to overall quality. For example, what current production blade is equal to or better than a Made in England Wilkinson Light Brigade blade? Personally, I feel the answer to that are there aren’t any. Mullard

The recent production Gillette Platinum Plus that were sold two years ago at Walgreens have been tested and appear to be every bit the equal of the 1970s production, to the extent that they are apparently the same blade. Those don't actually appear to be "current production" anymore unfortunately, though a few remain available for sale online. But yeah, at the end of the day, you get what you pay for. The only blades made for the US retail market to US quality standards these days come from Edgewell and Accutec, and those can be had for under 20 cents per blade, so there isn't really the level of technological development going on there that could have been possible if they were sold at a price reflecting inflation since the '70s. You know that a 10-pack of GPPs would run something like $12 in that world...

haiti222 · Mar 10, 2019

With regards to coatings, I believe there has been a big change in the last 6-7 years. Looking at the bigger shaving world beyond DE, I have noticed that many lesser razors have much better coatings. I first noticed it with the Mach 3 disposable, which was expensive, but had really good quality and longevity. This has trickled down to lesser quality and/or lower priced razors in some cases. I saw a sales notification for the Schick Exacta 2, the Atra clone, in the Philippines, where it is still a mainline razor, that noted it now has a Titanium coating (the magical coating used in the P74). The coatings of most of the modern blades are not openly discussed, even in marketing, but I can feel the difference and sense the longevity on many lower cost razors from some manufacturers.

BigJ · Mar 11, 2019

This thread should be REQUIRED READING (or at least recommended) for most here!! Great information!!

:a29:

Bogeyman · Mar 11, 2019

pdieten said:
The recent production Gillette Platinum Plus that were sold two years ago at Walgreens have been tested and appear to be every bit the equal of the 1970s production, to the extent that they are apparently the same blade. Those don't actually appear to be "current production" anymore unfortunately, though a few remain available for sale online...

I think the current Gillette Rubie is the modern equivalent based on price & my experience with its performance vs. the Brasilian Platinum Plus. Incredible blade. As well, there is some talk on forums that the newest Gillette "Blue Box" packaging of their regular Platinum blade has been "tweaked" to be even smoother. It's only available on the Bay for now from Europe and I have a few tucks that I have been testing. So far I am waxing & waning on whether it's the same Platinum blade as that in the old White Box and the current White/Blue/Silver box of which these latter two are IMO the very same blade, but with merely different packaging. Regardless, all three are crème de la crème IMO as well as the current Silver Blue, the Russian 7 O'Clock line & finally the Indian 7 O'Clock Super Platinum. Gillette has this figured out.

Ukrainian · Mar 11, 2019

Bogeyman said:
Gillette has this figured out.

As have American safety razor, Korean Dorco or German Feintechnik, even BIC. Most modern production will suffice.
Honestly, with proper prep and technique; if I blind pick a blade I don’t think I could tell above blades apart.
Could you?

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