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Questions about 3 pass

So I am having mixed to poor results shaving so far. I end up with razor burn, cuts all over my neck, and I have a feeling I'll develop bumps soon. I use a Muhle R89 with Astra blade, Plisson brush, Cella soap, and some Ahava aftershave lotion (no alcohol). I know it's my technique (or lack of), not the equipment's fault. I'm having a lot of trouble getting angles right too.

I watched the Mantic videos and read the wiki here about the 3 pass system but I'm confused. In a lot of videos, people shave straight down, then to the side, then up. My hair on my cheeks does not grow straight down and I don't think it does for most people (it grows down and to the side, angled).

1) Should I be shaving straight down in the first pass or literally with the grain, which would make it shaving somewhat to the side?

2) When I used a cartridge, I never went against the grain. It's really upsetting my skin now. Will this ever get better or does shaving against the grain always create these issues?
 
1. It is better to go with the grain, even if that is somewhat sideways. On the other hand, if your neck hair grows somewhat sideways and you shave straight down, you are doing an XTG pass or somewhat of a slant and that is OK.

2. Only go ATG after reducing whiskers with your WTG. Think of each whisker as a tiny lever. The shorter the external part (via a WTG pass), the less the sub-skin part will move when you go ATG. Less movement = less irritation.

Keep practicing for best angle and no pressure. I am sure you will be OK.
 

mswofford

Rest in Peace
You can map your beard without making diagrams by lathering your face and running your finger ahead of your shave stroke to find ATG. Shave your first pass WTG. Keep finding your ATG for each shave stroke; until you know your face. I don't do a 3 pass shave; Just 2, WTG & ATG but that's a choice, not necessarily a recommendation. Use as light a pressure as possible as your technique improves and you will enjoy your progress!
 
Where people have irritation problems, it is often advised to stick to just WTG. Barbasol has long advised that as a best shaving practice anyway. You can find your direction on a day's growth by running your fingers across parts of your face, in one direction at a time. The way that resists the most, and sounds scratchiest, is your ATG. The opposite way should feel smooth, and that is your WTG. Stick with your WTG for a few shaves. If problems persist, you can rule out your products by giving the brush a rest and temporarily reverting to whatever canned goop you used with cartridges. If needed, you can review the "let the weight of the razor do the work" advice and add near-zero pressure with your strokes. Some people did better that way, and some found it counterproductive since it caused some kind of skip, bounce, and gouge on the face, producing nicks and cuts. Personally, I rocked the razor, turned off the faucet, guided slowly and carefully, and listened for the resonating sound of cutting whiskers, and figured that was the correct angle and pressure.
When I started, I went with AoS protocol of starting with pre-shave oil. Whether it is of any help is somewhat controversial, but I have been able to sustain daily BBS and the requisite AGT with minimal irritation.
 
1. It is better to go with the grain, even if that is somewhat sideways. On the other hand, if your neck hair grows somewhat sideways and you shave straight down, you are doing an XTG pass or somewhat of a slant and that is OK.

2. Only go ATG after reducing whiskers with your WTG. Think of each whisker as a tiny lever. The shorter the external part (via a WTG pass), the less the sub-skin part will move when you go ATG. Less movement = less irritation.

Keep practicing for best angle and no pressure. I am sure you will be OK.
+1
 
Where people have irritation problems, it is often advised to stick to just WTG. Barbasol has long advised that as a best shaving practice anyway. You can find your direction on a day's growth by running your fingers across parts of your face, in one direction at a time. The way that resists the most, and sounds scratchiest, is your ATG. The opposite way should feel smooth, and that is your WTG. Stick with your WTG for a few shaves. If problems persist, you can rule out your products by giving the brush a rest and temporarily reverting to whatever canned goop you used with cartridges. If needed, you can review the "let the weight of the razor do the work" advice and add near-zero pressure with your strokes. Some people did better that way, and some found it counterproductive since it caused some kind of skip, bounce, and gouge on the face, producing nicks and cuts. Personally, I rocked the razor, turned off the faucet, guided slowly and carefully, and listened for the resonating sound of cutting whiskers, and figured that was the correct angle and pressure.
When I started, I went with AoS protocol of starting with pre-shave oil. Whether it is of any help is somewhat controversial, but I have been able to sustain daily BBS and the requisite AGT with minimal irritation.
For many the oil is effective, but not for me, it clogs my pores.
 
I usually advise avoiding the ATG passes until you have become proficient enough with the WTG and XTG. I actually do pretty much what mswafford does, but in 3 passes. I go N-S, then ear to throat, then S-N. The way my beard maps out, none of those are ATG passes, just variations on XTG with three different, slightly varying angles.
 
I'm just getting started & practice has made the biggest impact. Lots of great advice on the forum; prep, WTG, angle, no pressure...

with one exception... I see a lot of talk about multiple passes & that seems like completely bad advice for those of us just starting out.
Until a single WTG pass is mastered without nicks, irritation, etc. then it's not time to move onto hacking more hair off with additional passes.

Hang in there, I was frustrated at first, but just re-read the advice & tried to apply on the next shave.

Good luck!
 
The first pass I did (WTG) actually left me feeling like I hadn't taken enough off. With the cartridge it was easier to do it in one pass I guess.

Let me ask this. Can I do WTG for two passes or does each pass have to be in a different direction to get the results?

I should also add that I usually shave with TOBS Avocado (no brush) so Cella is new to me. I have no idea if using cella is going to result in a different shave.

I think a lot of this is confidence - a lot of fear about removing a chunk of neck, etc. so I'm hoping after a month or two of doing this I will be less afraid.
 
The first pass I did (WTG) actually left me feeling like I hadn't taken enough off. With the cartridge it was easier to do it in one pass I guess.

Let me ask this. Can I do WTG for two passes or does each pass have to be in a different direction to get the results?

I should also add that I usually shave with TOBS Avocado (no brush) so Cella is new to me. I have no idea if using cella is going to result in a different shave.

I think a lot of this is confidence - a lot of fear about removing a chunk of neck, etc. so I'm hoping after a month or two of doing this I will be less afraid.

It depends on your beard pattern. .beard mapping is important
 
As I am only about 3-4 months in to this journey myself my advice is fairly limited. I can say that early on I had a lot of irritation going ATG. With time and my technique developing, I get very little irritation now with a 4 pass shave daily.

I used a different blade about every 4 shaves with the same razor when starting. Some blades were smoother than others. I still find that Astra blades don't agree with me in that razor. Put them in a Gillette adjustable and they seem to be some of the best around.

I know they say use the same brand of blade for the first 45 shaves or so but I found that even with good technique that some blades just don't work out with some razors. So my theory, with bad technique in that situation it could amplify the irritation that the blade alone can cause.
 
The first pass I did (WTG) actually left me feeling like I hadn't taken enough off. With the cartridge it was easier to do it in one pass I guess.

Let me ask this. Can I do WTG for two passes or does each pass have to be in a different direction to get the results?

I should also add that I usually shave with TOBS Avocado (no brush) so Cella is new to me. I have no idea if using cella is going to result in a different shave.

I think a lot of this is confidence - a lot of fear about removing a chunk of neck, etc. so I'm hoping after a month or two of doing this I will be less afraid.

You can absolutely do two WTG passes. Many folks do and it works well for them. It sounds like your growth pattern is similar to mine. Definitely shave WTG first (it will be off to the side, but that's OK). You can then do another WTG pass or, if you feel comfortable, an across the grain (XTG) pass. The XTG pass won't be perfectly sideways. It will be more from your ear down to your chin. Skip the ATG pass for now. I rarely do one, and didn't do one at all for the first 6-8 months I used a DE.

Cella is good stuff, lathers easily and gives good protection. I love the scent. If I read your original post correctly, you aren't lathering TOBS with a brush? I'd try doing that. I've not used TOBS but many people like it.

Good luck!
 
The irritation is most likely due to improper technique as opposed to going the wrong direction(though this could also be the cause as well). It took me a good six months before I was as proficient as a Mach3, but at least the after day irritation was less so that's what kept me going in the adventure. Once you get to that point you'll be glad you did.
 
Great advices above.

Its also important to find the right gear, specially razor and blade. Try a blade sample pack and see which blade gives you most comfortable, irritation free shave.

In the beginning you should not attempt a very close shave. Just stick to WTG and XTG. Once you are comfortable, you can begin to go ATG. Even some seasoned wet shaver avoid ATG pass at certain areas. I never do ATG on my upper leap, rather I do XTG twice. Eventually you have to decide and find your own comfort zone!

Preshave and post shave routines are important. Shaving brush can be an important factor making a nice creamy lather.

No pressure at all, just let the razor weight to do the work. If you feel tugging, just change the blade. Don't change your razor too often in the beginning. Stick too a basic mild razor for fast few months.
 
Second shave was better. No razor burn. I skipped the ATG and stuck to WTG and a bit of XTG.

I have a few small nicks on the neck where my hair does a weird "swirl" pattern around the adam's apple but I think over time I'll get better at navigating that area. I will also probably learn to get under my nose a bit better.

Part of me wonders if I should have stuck with a cream like the old TOBS I used to use - I might just cave in and stop by Pasteur's and pick it up.

Thanks for the advice guys. I actually get excited for each new shave now even if the whole process takes a LOT longer. I either have a very boring life or there is something just exciting about this.
 
You can map your beard without making diagrams by lathering your face and running your finger ahead of your shave stroke to find ATG. Shave your first pass WTG. Keep finding your ATG for each shave stroke; until you know your face. I don't do a 3 pass shave; Just 2, WTG & ATG but that's a choice, not necessarily a recommendation. Use as light a pressure as possible as your technique improves and you will enjoy your progress!

+1
 
You sound like me when I started -- at least you got a good razor, not some crooked blade. Thing is, it has been optimized to cut hair; the "safety" refers not to the hazard it presents to the skin while in use, but handling generally. That is, it is not an open knife. But it can still very well be used to damage skin, especially splitting the epithelium in a million places, which is razor burn.

They say, "let the razor do the work," which is true, in that you ought not to focus too intently on hair removal. DON'T let the razor "do" your skin.
 
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