Apache Strata vs Shapton 12/16k

Okay guys have a question about the new stones I purchased, I have a Boker King Cutter that give me a DFS but started playing around with a few of the stones I picked up so I had originally finished it on the AS with a lot of strokes doing straight and x strokes with toe to heal and heal to toe and was getting a very smooth shave so then I ran the same razor over the Sharpton 12k stone about 10-12 strokes and then over the Sharpton 16k glass about the same and the feed back was quite different compared to the AS as in it seemed rougher ? The stones came to me lapped and appear to be smooth to the touch but wondering why it feels different since the grits are higher, pardon the dumb questions but this is my first jump into honing

Feedback vs what a hone is actually doing aren't always in step. I have hones with pretty awful feedback that leave great edges. What is the edge like once you come off of the shaptons?

The feel of natural and synthetics is quite different. You have good "shave buds" LOL. For me a natural vs synth is unmistakable.

You simply can not compare synthetic stones with naturals.

I personally got a AS for testing and have to admit that this thing is very fine, but very slow also.

A good comparison would be a La Veille Rouge Coticule with a La Veinette Coticule, wich both make a wonderfull, and nearly same edge, while the LVR seems to be at a lower grit because the honing feeling on them (at least the ones i have tested) is very rough, while the LV is smooth to hone on.

Btw. I don`t think the Shapton 16k is finer than the AS.

Greets Sebastian.

The Shapton 16K would only be 12K stone if they used the grit scale used by Naniwa and King.
The Shapton 12K would be about 10K.

buca3152 said:

The feel of natural and synthetics is quite different. You have good "shave buds" LOL. For me a natural vs synth is unmistakable.

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You are correct the feedback is really different so I'm guessing I need to try different stones after coming off the Cerax 8k by either going with the AS or JNAT or use the 12 and 16 sharpton and see which ones I prefer

One of my best finishing Jnats gives feedback like driving over a pebbled road.
How does it shave? That - is the question.

Gamma said:

One of my best finishing Jnats gives feedback like driving over a pebbled road.
How does it shave? That - is the question.

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I didn't really notice a super big difference but I only did about a dozen or so strokes with each of the sharptons so maybe more strokes to see a bigger difference

As I said before, the high grit synths will soon be collecting dust.

I also have this stone but have no idea where it would fit into the process as it's not marked, the AS stone is marketed as 10-12k but this beauty is not marked at all, I still have a ton to learn and have lots of stones to figure out

One thing I've noticed regarding my Shapton Pro stones is that if they aren't freshly lapped they feel sort of rougher when honing. Almost like that pebbly road analogy. Give them a fresh lapping and they're smooth as silk. When they aren't freshly lapped I think maybe the binder has worn down a tiny bit farther than the abrasive, so basically you feel the blade hitting all the abrasive particles that are standing just slightly proud of the binder. This is one reason I lap my Shaptons with pretty much every use. It doesn't remove as much material as people think when you're mostly honing razors. I've probably had my Shaptons for 4 or 5 years at least, and I measured their thickness and marked it on the stones when new - today the most used stone, the 2k is about .010" thinner than when it was new, just measured it.

Well the stones were all lapped prior to me receiving them from the seller, he advised they were lapped on a DMT

Shaptons are super capable hones, it's just discovering what you like and don't like, I suppose. If you decide you just want to deal with naturals at that refinement level once you use everything more, you won't have any trouble finding ppl to take them off your hands to find something you prefer to use.

Another question is what grit diamond plate did he use to lap them. If it was an XXC that could cause a rougher feel (yes I have seen some guys that do this on a 12k+ stone). A brand new or nearly new finer diamond plate is worse than a worn XXC.

Also my stones have felt weird like this on occasion even if they weren't used after lapping last time. It may be that the binder shrinks a bit more than the abrasive particles when the stone dries, which again leaves them slightly proud. Really there's no way to tell whether what you're feeling is normal or not unless you have someone who knows the stones near enough to you to try them out.

Regardless, they won't be as smooth as an Apache because an Apache basically has barely anything abrasive in it at all. Most if not all of the work is done with burnishing. If anyone doesn't believe that try raising a very light barely there slurry on the Apache and take a razor straight to it from a 1k bevel set (I've done it on both of mine for 20+ minutes each). There won't be much if any slurry darkening/swarf production, and those are the easiest conditions possible to get it.

Could I possible lap them again with say 320 WD sandpaper on a glass plate or granite tile, or should I just buy a lapping stone, I wish I could afford a diamond plate but cannot at this time.

Wet/dry works fine, maybe go a bit finer on the finer stones though. 600 would probably be pretty good. Is go with a granite tile and wet/dry before getting one of those silicon carbide "lapping stones." Those things suck. There are lower cost diamond plate too though, I think the one that is branded Trend is pretty decent.

I have several days off coming up so my plan is to play around with several stones and attempt to do my first hone from bevel set to finish with the blade the seller of the stones included for me to practice with, I pretty much dulled the edge on glass so it will give me a good learning experience

Okay now to even further complicate things I have a tape on the spine question, when you touchup a razor by say going back to 8K and as you are not pleased with the results you are getting from leather or say a finish stone would one apply a single layer of tape to protect the spine from wear or do most of you say no tape and just do what needs to be done.

The reason I ask is a lot of the straights I have I have no idea if tape was used during honing to get it shave ready.

ItIt depends on the razor and stone for me. I don't use tape a whole lot, mostly for very fine stones with lesser cutting power or to protect say an etched spine. Sometimes if I'm doing a lot of stone testing I will "stack" a few edges by adding a layer of tape each time I switch stones to make sure I am getting only the finish from the newest stone at the apex. Going back to an 8k shouldn't really take off much steel so tape won't really do much in that respect.

One nice thing about tape is it focuses the feel to the edge which is nice when learning.