What Types of Steels Do Modern Straights Use?

Yes, I agree- all razors are made with fine grain steels..... such as the 'Dx' series Grain is defined on a chart from 1 to 10 with 10 being the finest; 1-5 are considered coarse, fine is considered 6 to 10. O1 is 9 (very fine) while D2 is 7.5 (fine). If fine grain is the goal then both the T or V series of high speed steels would be superior choices at 9.5 grain rating (source: B.F. Shepherd, 'ASM Tool Steels'). Further, the Mxx series of steels can reach 70 Rc, harder than any other steel that I know of. But still, all of the D series are rated at least 8, along with the Mxx series steels. O1 by comparison is rated at 3 on the same scale.

A2 is inferior to D2 regarding hardness, wear resistance and corrosion resistance, the three things I would rate most highly in choosing a razor steel. That said, it is superior to O1 certainly and much more machinable than D2, which I have already said is basically terrible. Also as previously stated, I do not believe conventional razor manufacturing techniques including forging and hollow grinding with AlOx abrasives would prove useful on D2 (or any of the high speed steels I listed in the first paragraph).

At any rate, I am not knocking O1- it is an inexpensive, 'workhorse' of a steel and I am sure it will make an excellent straight razor. I just do not believe it is the best choice for razor steel, or even all that close.

And by the way, I certainly do not mean to step on anyone's toes here, including yours. Your work is known to me and is certainly of excellent reputation and quality (based on exactly two of your razors I have seen.... there are not a lot of them around as you well know). I certainly did not mean to intrude on your material choices or knock your product in any way. Given real- world limitations, it is quite probable that D2 and similar steels can not be fully hollow ground and there is no one making straight razors out of any similar steel that I am aware of. My input in this thread is based on purely metallurgical and scientific grounds, not the practical which you of course have to deal with every day. As an example of practical vs. ideal, I would say the zinc alloy Merkur makes their DE razors from is far from the ideal material but no doubt the right choice based on all the considerations of manufacturing and sales price point.

Brian

MileMarker60 said:

I'm 99% certain every manufactured razor is made with a fine grain steel. As well as almost all custom razor are made with a fine grain steel. I'm certain they are using it for a reason

Back a few years ago, there was a couple of gentleman that took a handful of vintage razors. Sheffield, German, etc.. and had them tested to see what "type" steel was used. All came back as basic high carbon steel.
As for the Fily's, the only way to know what they used is to have it test.
If I had to guess, I would say it was more about advertisement then it was about the steel choice.

Why not use A2 instead of D2?

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BDF said:

And by the way, I certainly do not mean to step on anyone's toes here, including yours. Your work is known to me and is certainly of excellent reputation and quality (based on exactly two of your razors I have seen.... there are not a lot of them around as you well know). I certainly did not mean to intrude on your material choices or knock your product in Brian

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Your not stepping on my toes everyone has their own opinions, though I will say there are a few more razors out there then you may think
I just think your opinion of the steels used are a little misplaced. To imply that "X" isn't that good... but "x" steel would be better without have tested it seems questionable.
If you had made razors out of "X" steel or had a group of razors made from "X" steel and those razor's out performed other typical razors then I may be able to see your point. But given you don't/haven't it's hard for me to see your side.

Making a razor from D2 isn't a new concept. It's been done. There have been a handful of guys do it. The interesting part is you don't see people do it often. "IF" the steel was that great for a razor (or even knives) why wouldn't you see more of them? It's not a costly steel. There are more then enough people capable of working with the steel but in general the majority tend to use other types of steel.

I'd be willing to bet you could find someone to make you a razor out of D2. I think you should. Then you would have a direct comparison of that steel vs typical razor steels.

I know the text of my post could come off abrasive, what isn't my intent. I truly do think you should hunt down or have a razor made of D2 to see is if it lives up to what you think. It's the only way to know!

What I meant by there are not a lot of your razors out there is in comparison to Dovo, Boker, etc., etc.. Again, not a dig at you- you are a custom razor maker and Boker has been in full production for over a century; it is perfectly logical that I would have seen far more Bokers than B.B. razors.

Starting to go in circles here but I believe the reason that most people use an oil hardened steel is one of manufacturing, not because it is not a superior material. Again, Merkur makes gajillions of razors out of a cast zinc alloy and in fact, they offer nothing but zinc alloy casting based razors. Should we assume this is the finest material available to make DE razors out of or could there be other reasons such as manufacturing ability? Cost of manufacture? Right.... it is the best material that fits their price / performance point, not the best material period.

As far as not knowing how a steel will perform until you try it for an application, I simply do not agree with that. All of the steels we have talked about and many more have been tested over and over again and that testing has been qualified and quantified. I am more of a fan of the school of information gained is information that can be applied in the future. When a company makes a $250,000 tool to punch, press or injection mold a product, do you really think they just "try" steels until they find the one they like? Not the case at all: they apply previously gained knowledge to choose the best steel for the new purpose at hand. Do you think that many different lenses were 'tried' to make the Hubble telescope or was a material chosen based on known qualities of the materials available?

Again, not trying to wizz in your corn flakes. If the 'try it' method works for you, by all means use that method. Me, I believe once Bernoulli wrote down the principle, it can be applied to aircraft wings centuries in the future... and it will still work because it has to do so. I base my opinions on my gained knowledge in both metallurgy as well as tribology and will stand by the statement that I would start with D2 as being an outstanding blade base material and adjust material choice based on science and group learning (the past 200 years of metallurgy will suffice in this case). Just my opinion again but I believe the chemical engineer at Shell knows far more about lubricating oil than the guy at Jiffy Lube.... even though the Jiffy Lube guy has touched / handled FAR, FAR more motor oil than any 10 engineers at Shell has.

Anyway, I think you and I are at a end of useful information exchange. And again, my very best regards and respect for your abilities and product. I wish you the very best with your product and your business. Sincerely.

Brian

MileMarker60 said:

Your not stepping on my toes everyone has their own opinions, though I will say there are a few more razors out there then you may think
I just think your opinion of the steels used are a little misplaced. To imply that "X" isn't that good... but "x" steel would be better without have tested it seems questionable.
If you had made razors out of "X" steel or had a group of razors made from "X" steel and those razor's out performed other typical razors then I may be able to see your point. But given you don't/haven't it's hard for me to see your side.

Making a razor from D2 isn't a new concept. It's been done. There have been a handful of guys do it. The interesting part is you don't see people do it often. "IF" the steel was that great for a razor (or even knives) why wouldn't you see more of them? It's not a costly steel. There are more then enough people capable of working with the steel but in general the majority tend to use other types of steel.

I'd be willing to bet you could find someone to make you a razor out of D2. I think you should. Then you would have a direct comparison of that steel vs typical razor steels.

I know the text of my post could come off abrasive, what isn't my intent. I truly do think you should hunt down or have a razor made of D2 to see is if it lives up to what you think. It's the only way to know!

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BDF said:

When a company makes a $250,000 tool to punch, press or injection mold a product, do you really think they just "try" steels until they find the one they like? Not the case at all: they apply previously gained knowledge to choose the best steel for the new purpose at hand.

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That a good point! They are going to use previously learn knowledge for steel used in that application. Chance are it's something they've used before. They have a history with it, know what to expect.
They aren't picking a steel off a spec sheet they have no history with.
Yet in a way that is what your doing with the D2 steel and it's application in a razor

I'll agree we'll have to agree to disagree, which is cool.
I'm not one to base my opinion on something I haven't tried.
I think you would be surprised if you did the same.

I'll add one more note, mostly because you may enjoy the reading.
Do a search on steel specifically made for blades. There are been a handful of guy that have had a hand in designing steels.
SC145 comes to mind as well as CruforgeV

I don't have a lot of time to spend here. I'm too busy making stuff to pay the bills...

A variable you may want to consider is carbide size. It has a great effect on how edges will form, and how they will degrade with use. Various alloys form different carbides, of different hardnesses, and sizes... It is a very interesting study.

Now if I could just work that SEM in to my budget!

These people might know a bit about making cutting tools: http://www.dienesusa.com/index.html

And when they use cutters, they work with folks such as these to have them made: https://www.carolinaknife.com/resources/blade_materials.php That page shows the materials, both ferrous (steel) and non- ferrous, that they use to make their cutting tools. Virtually any one of those materials (other than S7 (Bearcat) or spring steel) would be outstanding if used to make a straight razor (or safety razor for that matter). Unfortunately, conventional hollow grinding techniques would not work efficiently enough to make them practical IMO.

The page with the materials above (Carolina Knife) is a very good reference for the mechanical metallurgy and properties of the various materials if anyone wants to learn more.

Brian