Quick question on honing

**StephenKane** · 04-10-2008, 07:32 PM

I'm still trying to hone my first razor. Not having much luck. I've tried the pyrimid system as recommended but still have rough spots on the heel and toe (by feel) and can't shave with the razor. It won't 'Pop' hair off my arm or pass a HHT.

Question 1: How does one "start over' with a razor? Do I back hone X amount of times and then try to reestablish a bevel/edge?

**mparker762** · 04-10-2008, 07:50 PM

If you've been doing pyramids then you don't need to backhone, since the pyramid scheme does a good job of preventing excessive burrs. You can just keep doing pyramids until it's sharp all over.

I'm curious why the heel and toe aren't getting sharp though. Have you tried the magic marker test to verify they're hitting the hone correctly?

**StephenKane** · 04-11-2008, 12:31 AM

thanks. No I haven't been doing the Edge uniformity test. I thought I'd get a blade close to sharp first and then try that. I'm concerned that I've had 5 sit down and try to sharpen the blade sessions with the norton and can't even get close to having it sharp enough to pop a hair...even a bit. I've had another blade professionally sharpened so I can feel what a sharp blade should be like - can't get close.

**mparker762** · 04-11-2008, 04:21 AM

When was your norton last lapped? Back when I used it, I lapped it before every session. It makes a huge difference.

**StephenKane** · 04-11-2008, 06:05 AM

I lapped it before the first attempt at honing. So 5 attempts ago. I will lap again before the next one. Again, I've tried the Pyrimid and I've tried a couple of processes that I've read in the forumn but the blade doesn't get sharp enough to shave with. At least I'm relatively sure that I shouldn't move away from the 4K until it can pass the test - I have a 12K for polishing but now that I'm learning more I'm not moving to that until the straight can pop hairs.

**Grigio** · 04-11-2008, 06:46 AM

I'm sort of a newbie when it comes to honing but I think that you should try the magic marker trick right off the bat. Especially with any razor that you have not honed before.

I have a Wapi that I never had any luck with and after a lot of trying to get it sharp, I checked the edge and found that it is slightly warped. Which explained the poor results (especially on a Norton which is wide enough to not necessitate the use of an X-pattern).

Once you know what part is not contacting the hone you can try and adjust your stroke/?pressure? to compensate for it.

As I mentioned, I'm no expert, but the more you know about your situation the better you (and others here) can handle it.

**StephenKane** · 04-11-2008, 07:58 AM

I'm going to sit down tonight again and
1. Lap my hone
2. Try the magic marker test
3. Go with the pyrimid pattern of strokes.

if that doesn't work I'll use the razor butter toast. I may not have mentioned it but i had this razor honed by Vintage Blades but it was never sharp enought to shave with without pulling and being uncomfortable. so maybe it's the razor itself that is making this difficult - though it's more than likley it's my inexperience.

**Thebigspendur** · 04-11-2008, 08:48 AM

I don't know what kind of razor you have or its condition however the 4K is mainly used to set the bevel, remove microchips-stuff like that. if your bevel is in good shape I wouldn't be spending much time with it your just removing alot of metal.

**StephenKane** · 04-11-2008, 08:56 AM

It's a Dovo Solingen carbon steel 5/8. I had read and posts have stated that before moving on to polishing, the str8t should be passing the HHT and the magic marker test.

also the pyrimid pattern of strops keeps sending the razor back to the 4K side for multiple passes after the 8K side is used. I'm assuming that this pattern ultimatley gets the razor to the point of passing the two tests -though I haven't been able to make it.

I will definitely keep trying.

**asbjorn** · 04-11-2008, 09:40 AM

sorry to hijack but,

I have the same problem, with an similar Dovo solingen carbon steel 5/8 (similar since I don't know which you have, mine is full hollow ground)

The pyramid, I thought that is used only with the norton 4k/8k right?, I have tried it once now for the Dovo, and once for an Wapi, the dovo is still useless, but the Wapi feels sharp, but none is passing hht, and, well, the markertest, looks like I miss the heel.

Or should I use another stone combination for the pyramid? (i have the lot)

**StephenKane** · 04-11-2008, 10:28 AM

My str8t is the very same one and no problem to hijack. Thanks for jumping in. Maybe some of the experienced honers could weigh in. could it be the quality of the str8t? I still think it's me but....

I have a Dovo 5/8 solingen that was much more expensive and haven't honed it yet as it was done by a pro. It cuts great.

**heavydutysg135** · 04-11-2008, 02:32 PM

That's a quick question without a quick answer. There are going to be two different camps of people answering you. The first is going to tell you that you probably overhoned the razor and need to do light work on it and the second is going to tell you that if your razor does not feel sharp and never did then it isn't close to being there yet. I am definately in the second camp and would tell you that if your razor is not at least significantly sharper than the sharpest knife that you ever felt then you have not done enough work on the metal removing stones (4K and below). If you have not yet read this thread then I would recommend checking it out.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31640
I will also be posting a video in the near future which will cover all of what I consider the "fundamentals" of honing including how to perform and use the sharpness tests to see when you are ready to move from one stage/stone to the next.

David

**asbjorn** · 04-11-2008, 03:10 PM

so much text.. no pictures.. gawd.. so I have to read it then..

**asbjorn** · 04-11-2008, 03:12 PM

So, which stones to use under 4K?, I don't want to use my D8C :D, or my D8E, other options?

**heavydutysg135** · 04-11-2008, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by asbjorn

So, which stones to use under 4K?, I don't want to use my D8C :D, or my D8E, other options?

The DMT-8E will work really well if used properly.

**heavydutysg135** · 04-11-2008, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by asbjorn

so much text.. no pictures.. gawd.. so I have to read it then..

Nobody is forcing you to take the time to read it, you can figure it all out on your own by honing hundreds of razors if you want. Alternatively, I am in the process of editing a video (hopefully it will be done in a week or two) that will cover the material and might keep your attention.

David

**StephenKane** · 04-11-2008, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

That's a quick question without a quick answer. There are going to be two different camps of people answering you. The first is going to tell you that you probably overhoned the razor and need to do light work on it and the second is going to tell you that if your razor does not feel sharp and never did then it isn't close to being there yet. I am definately in the second camp and would tell you that if your razor is not at least significantly sharper than the sharpest knife that you ever felt then you have not done enough work on the metal removing stones (4K and below). If you have not yet read this thread then I would recommend checking it out.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31640
I will also be posting a video in the near future which will cover all of what I consider the "fundamentals" of honing including how to perform and use the sharpness tests to see when you are ready to move from one stage/stone to the next.

David

I've read it a hundred times - great post and thanks for taking the time to write it. The problem is that if I can't get the hair test to work - which I haven't - but I did get the magic marker to work - which I did - then I'm stuck. I tend to think the second camp is right and that I haven't done enough work on the 4K ...BUT how many strokes to I do before giving up? I've had to have put quite a few round trips on the 4K in the 6 honing sessions I've done to this razor...and it doesn't seem to be getting to the point where it can pop a hair.

Remember - I had this razor honed at Vintage Blades BEFORE trying to shave with it and it was pulling and uncomfortable right from the get go. I've lapped my hone twice and been through the pyrimid regimen 3 times and I've gotten only very minor feel improvements. The rough spots are gone but It still isn't feeling as sharp and smooth as my higher end razor.

Sigh. I guess I'll wait for the video!

**Mike_ratliff** · 04-11-2008, 11:47 PM

Do not expect the hair test to work on every razor. That is just a test.

Feel the edge, if it feels very sharp with the the thumb pad test, then move on to the 8k.

Use your marker when setting your bevel, this is when it is most important. Once you are certain of your bevel, you are past the hard part.

I am going to ask you to try a blind test.

Use your marker, and do 5 passes on the 4k. I would recommend taping the spine.
If the marker is removed for the length of the edge, then great. If not, you have found your problem.

Next step assuming the marker test is okay. do 25 very light passes on 8k, and 20 passes on your 12k no testing. I repeat have faith, use as light of pressure as possible, and do not test the blade.
If you have 0.5 chromium do 25 passes, and if you have 0.25 diamond paste do 15 passes. Remember no testing.

Finally do 50 passes on newspaper, and 50 on leather.

Then test your edge. and share your results.

**asbjorn** · 04-11-2008, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

Nobody is forcing you to take the time to read it, you can figure it all out on your own by honing hundreds of razors if you want. Alternatively, I am in the process of editing a video (hopefully it will be done in a week or two) that will cover the material and might keep your attention.

David

There was some irony in my line there :)
I have been reading all the parts of the interactive guide regarding honing, this part slipped through.
I have to read it completely now to be sure I'm understandig this.
My language is not english natively, so lots of dence writing takes away my attention. But I really want to see the video, I hope there are some good ideas there.
The info about the honing pyramid I read about on SRP, and in Lynns DVD, but in the DVD he says it takes so little..

**asbjorn** · 04-11-2008, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by StephenKane

...but I did get the magic marker to work - which I did - then I'm stuck. I tend to think the second camp is right and that I haven't done enough work on the 4K ...BUT how many strokes to I do before giving up? I've had to have put quite a few round trips on the 4K in the 6 honing sessions I've done to this razor...and it doesn't seem to be getting to the point where it can pop a hair.

Does it exists pictures of what to look for in the magic marker test?, I have tried it, and I think I'm there. The razor also pops hair of my arm witout any problem, but the HHT is not working. (My head is clean so I have to use other hair from my forearm or my chest, which have different thicknesses, but it should still do, right?)
The HHT I saw a small video of, so I finally understood how it works, at least I guess so. I think it is Mike at SRP who have that video in his sig?

Edit: Its Mike_ratliff in this thread who have the video:), and this link:
http://thewellhonedrazor.com/hahate.html