For maximum botulism-killing effect, can curing salt be added to boiling water when making a brine, or should the brine be cooled before adding the sodium nitrite? Bonus points for citing sources.
Brining: Does hot water neutralize sodium nitrite's efficacy?
- Thread starter mdc
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I suspect it won't make an ounce of difference. As I understand it, the nitrites and nitrates themselves do not act as the curing agent, rather the product of their breakdown,nitric oxide, does. During the curing process, nitrite breaks down to nitric oxide which acts as the curing agent in cure #1 and which is why it is safe to fry foods cured with nitrites.
Cure #2 contains nitrates and nitrites, the nitrates breaking down into nitrites over time which then break down to nitric oxide for long term storage. Meat cured with cure #2 should not be fried as it will still contain nitrate and nitrite at the point of cooking, which can become carcinogenic when exposed to high temperatures.
Plus boiling won't kill clostridium botulinum, unless it was done under pressure to reach 120C
The question is whether the boiling would result in the breakdown or destruction of nitrites/nitrates/nitric oxide, but I don't think boiling is really a necessary step going off the way the nitrites and nitrates act on the meat
Cure #2 contains nitrates and nitrites, the nitrates breaking down into nitrites over time which then break down to nitric oxide for long term storage. Meat cured with cure #2 should not be fried as it will still contain nitrate and nitrite at the point of cooking, which can become carcinogenic when exposed to high temperatures.
Plus boiling won't kill clostridium botulinum, unless it was done under pressure to reach 120C
The question is whether the boiling would result in the breakdown or destruction of nitrites/nitrates/nitric oxide, but I don't think boiling is really a necessary step going off the way the nitrites and nitrates act on the meat
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What is your end result here? Are you just canning? If so, what are you canning? If you follow all proper techniques, I highly doubt you will have to worry about botulism.
I don't know about curing salts or nitrates, but if you are looking for an effective additive, I'd look at campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite). Its used in wine, cider and mead making. Its primary use is on the unfermented juice (must) to inhibit the growth of wild yeast and bacteria so that a cultured yeast can be introduced for the real fermentation. No idea if sodium/potassium metabisulfite kills botulism though.
I do know that time and boiling will essentially get rid of the sodium metabisulfite you introduce though. I add a campden tablet to my brewing water to get rid of chloramine in the water. Chlorine can be simply boiled off, however chloramine cannot. I draw my brewing water off the night before brew day, and add a crushed campden tablet. By the next morning, and through the boiling processes used in brewing, all of the chloramine is removed. I do not feel like the campden tablet adds any extra bacterial/yeast protection to my wort though.
I don't know about curing salts or nitrates, but if you are looking for an effective additive, I'd look at campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite). Its used in wine, cider and mead making. Its primary use is on the unfermented juice (must) to inhibit the growth of wild yeast and bacteria so that a cultured yeast can be introduced for the real fermentation. No idea if sodium/potassium metabisulfite kills botulism though.
I do know that time and boiling will essentially get rid of the sodium metabisulfite you introduce though. I add a campden tablet to my brewing water to get rid of chloramine in the water. Chlorine can be simply boiled off, however chloramine cannot. I draw my brewing water off the night before brew day, and add a crushed campden tablet. By the next morning, and through the boiling processes used in brewing, all of the chloramine is removed. I do not feel like the campden tablet adds any extra bacterial/yeast protection to my wort though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_nitrate#Applications a little more information on thermal decomposition of nitrate/nitrite
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- #5
I'm brining and smoking ham hocks. I have a book that says to cool the brine before adding the curing salt. If boiling the pink salt breaks down nitrite, we should know.
The wiki page seems fairly technical. But thanks.
The wiki page seems fairly technical. But thanks.
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- #6
From the Wikipedia page for sodium nitrite, I saw no indication that curing powers are diminished at reasonable temperatures.
A book that I have come to respect is "In the Charcuterie" where the authors state:
There's no other justification, specific temperature, or citation to back that claim.
Another, and widely respected book on the topic--"Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas--makes no mention of this temperature restriction.
It's left me scratching my chin and looking upwards.
A book that I have come to respect is "In the Charcuterie" where the authors state:
There's no other justification, specific temperature, or citation to back that claim.
Another, and widely respected book on the topic--"Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas--makes no mention of this temperature restriction.
It's left me scratching my chin and looking upwards.
I don't know if this will help you but here's a link to a publication by Morton Salt, a company that manufactures a product called Tender Quick, a curing compound of salt and nitrates http://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/curing-meat-at-home-zmaz73jfzraw.aspx#axzz37kBAUUOZ. In the booklet they recommend adding their product to boiled water that has been allowed to cool. For myself I'd would take the safest course, allowing the water to cool before adding nitrates. It might extend processing time but not significantly compared to the amount of time the curing process takes overall. I think (SWAG) that the heat might accelerate the break down of nitrogen compounds reducing their effectiveness. For example potassium nitrate is used to make black powder because, when heated, it releases a large amount of oxygen that accelerates the burning of the charcoal and sulfur that are the other ingredients. I do not know what temperature is required to cause the decomposition of nitrates so I would tend to err on the side of caution.
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If the recipe says to cool the brine, why would you want to boil it?
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- #9
Brines are typically heated to disolve salt and sugar and to release the flavor of spices. Recipes call for cooling brines *after* bringing water to a boil, and mixing in salt, sugar and spices.
I think it is a very good idea to NOT BOIL your pink salt or prague powder. The chemistry of meat cures is not terribly complex and it goes like this. Nitrate ions can be reduced to nitrite ion by fermentation bugs over time. The nitrite can be further reduced to nitric oxides which DO THE CURING by reacting with meat proteins like myoglobins to create the pick color. Using just a small amount of very reactive nitrite allows the cure to be much safer as the extra abundance of nitrate is not needed when using an insta cure made with nitrite. BUT nitrite can be oxidized back to nitrate so you want there to be enough to get the job done without exhausting them to zero before the cure completes. A reason to boil your salt, sugar brine is definitely to kill off as much bacteria and fungi as possible. Yes the spores can survive this boiling but only spores can survive boiling for any length of time including the tough to kill C, botulism spores. That is why canned foods with low acidity have added acids (green chilis etc) to keep the C. botulism from growing in the low acid media. Same for meat cures. Unless it ferments to make it a sour dry ferment, the added nitrites kills off the C. botulism bacteria that somehow survived as spores.
So Nitrates are very stable in solution and do not degrade from boiling although nitrates can be leached from meats and veg by boiling in water so the levels go down iin the meat or veg f you don't eat or drink the boiling liquids. Nitrites are less stable in solution and capable of being oxidized OR reduced. Reduction to nitric oxide in solution is the desired step to effect a meat cure but nitric oxide is REALLY UNSTABLE in liquids or as a gas. It is a super reactive short lived species (it will react with many molecules including proteins and fats) and also volatile so until it reacts with the meat it can also just outgas into the air or volatilize away as it is also a gas and a big component of smog etc.
Boiling the water kills good and bad bugs but not the spores from bugs quickly AND it helps dissolve the salts and sugar. Boil salts and sugar and then let it cool and THEN ADD your prague powder or instacure. The less nitrite you are using, the more important that the small amount used is really there and active. Commercial cures often require the use of sodium erythorbate which is a preservative on it's own and safe but ALSO acts a reducing agent to help reduce the small amount of nitrite to the super active nitric oxide curing species. So if you are using a ton of instacure or a mix of nitrite AND extra nitrate for a long cure, it doesn't much matter if you boil it first as you have a huge and unhealthy excess of nitrate to act as a reservoir but that isn't considered healthy or safe and may exceed FDA approved levels for nitrate. GO low nitrite without extra nitrate and be much more careful and still get a good safe cure is the way to go.
So Nitrates are very stable in solution and do not degrade from boiling although nitrates can be leached from meats and veg by boiling in water so the levels go down iin the meat or veg f you don't eat or drink the boiling liquids. Nitrites are less stable in solution and capable of being oxidized OR reduced. Reduction to nitric oxide in solution is the desired step to effect a meat cure but nitric oxide is REALLY UNSTABLE in liquids or as a gas. It is a super reactive short lived species (it will react with many molecules including proteins and fats) and also volatile so until it reacts with the meat it can also just outgas into the air or volatilize away as it is also a gas and a big component of smog etc.
Boiling the water kills good and bad bugs but not the spores from bugs quickly AND it helps dissolve the salts and sugar. Boil salts and sugar and then let it cool and THEN ADD your prague powder or instacure. The less nitrite you are using, the more important that the small amount used is really there and active. Commercial cures often require the use of sodium erythorbate which is a preservative on it's own and safe but ALSO acts a reducing agent to help reduce the small amount of nitrite to the super active nitric oxide curing species. So if you are using a ton of instacure or a mix of nitrite AND extra nitrate for a long cure, it doesn't much matter if you boil it first as you have a huge and unhealthy excess of nitrate to act as a reservoir but that isn't considered healthy or safe and may exceed FDA approved levels for nitrate. GO low nitrite without extra nitrate and be much more careful and still get a good safe cure is the way to go.
I searched and found that this was the one board that even mentioned this topic. So I posted a reply as I am a chemist working in biotech for way way too many years and have too many technical books on fermentation science, brewing, wine making and meat smoking / curing / fermentation. This is just an overlooked part of making your meat brines. The history of meat brines and cures is fun stuff and over time here in the US, the levels of nitrite just keep going down as excess free nitrites are bad for our health. But of course no nitrites can ALSO be very bad for our health if the meat has C. botulism toxins in it. Yet in Europe and Asia, there are many large cuts of meat safely preserved without ANY nitrites at all. Spanish jamon, Chinese Yunnan hams and many more. Tons of Italian charcuterie are made with salt as the basc cure and they know how to do it safely.
Very cool.
I used to spend some time on a home distilling site. There was a gentleman that posted extensively and in depth on yeast strains used in making Scotch, as his full time job was the study and preservation of said yeast strains. I could barely follow his posts, but it was fascinating.
I’ve only tried brining Turkey twice. Once was a spectacular success. The other not so much. To much time in the brine.
Thanks again.
I wonder if it is to also allow for adjustment of the amount of curing salt due to evaporation if the water is boiled too long. Maybe not for a 3 gallon brine done at home, but some sort of legacy recommendation for a large operation where the quantities of water are larger and might be decanted off to various smaller vessels. Adding the curing salt first prior to boiling could lead to it being over concentrated (and is either dangerous or just wasteful of the more expensive curing salt) versus measuring and adding after cooling.
Could it be part of de-chlorinating the water? Might the chlorine negatively affect the nitrates/nitrites? I have no idea but this is what came to mind.
dave
dave
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