Honing help

Please help me. I bought this (American) straight razor from eBay:



It seems to have a good edge- no nicks or anything, and a fairly good spine. I have experienced what it means to have a shave ready edge but I know want to hone myself. For this I bought a 1k/3k Chinese synthetic hone and a 12k Imperia La Roccia natural hone. I spent like an hour just on the 1k hone (circles and x strokes) and the blade finally began being sticky to my thumbnail but it failed the hanging hair test. At this point the spine and edge where shiny. I lapped it some more (30min each) on the 3k and the Roccia stone with slurry then without slurry. Still failed the hanging hair test. I attempted to shave with it anyways and it was very tuggy. Is it normal to have to hone this long? To get it to shave ready what stone should I spend more time on?

The HHT is normally only used for the finished edge.

The most important thing is to make sure the bevel is set properly, if this step is not done correctly the rest of the steps mean nothing.

I like using cherry tomatoes to check the bevel, get a tomato and make sure the edge cuts it along the entire length of the blade, it should cut easily at each step.

Once this is done you need to move up the progression. I am not familiar at all with your stones but a jump from 3 to 12 is a HUGE jump, you might need something in the middle.

Did you lap the hones fire to make sure they were flat?

Seraphim said:

Did you lap the hones fire to make sure they were flat?

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Yup. Marked them with pencil lines then lapped with 220 grit sandpaper on glass.

I have regular tomatoes no cherry tomatoes. The blade does stick to my finger the entire length of the blade.

Check the stones with a straightedge. Just lapping off grids does not guarantee the stone is flat. Slurry can take the lines off.

Also - the grits listed might be suspect. Unknown stones are often not nearly the same as what, say - a Norton or Naniwa stone.
And those two lines vary also - a 1k Norton is coarser than a 1k Nani.
Inexepensive 12k Natural stones are also, often, not equivalent to known synthetic counterparts.
This doesn't mean that your stones won't work, it only means they may not work as expected or as they are assumed to work.

There are lots of tests that people use, personally - I find the TNT to be solid.
If you're not getting a positive TNT - then your bevel isn't set.

Did you strop?

Yes I stropped... Just tried again for another hour. Still nothing.

3k to 12k is a big jump IMO.

Brooksie967 said:

3k to 12k is a big jump IMO.

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I was under the impression high grit would just take much longer not that it couldn't be done or no?

Could be the stones aren't flat or could be the bevel was set with two layers of tape and he ain't found the edge yet. Gosh, if he only had the honed senses from a decade of experience.The ability to read the wave of water wafting over the edge, or the subtle feel of the edge not quite reaching the stone, or the telling sound of the an edge ready for progression from bevel set. Gee, I wonder what technique might help a beginner overcome these sensory deficiencies.

Gorgeous razor!

Avenolpey said:

Could be the stones aren't flat or could be the bevel was set with two layers of tape and he ain't found the edge yet. Gosh, if he only had the honed senses from a decade of experience.The ability to read the wave of water wafting over the edge, or the subtle feel of the edge not quite reaching the stone, or the telling sound of the an edge ready for progression from bevel set. Gee, I wonder what technique might help a beginner overcome these sensory deficiencies.

Gorgeous razor!

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Thanks, here is another shot of it Geo. S. Talbot Cumberland Wis. (couldnt find any info on it.):



I did hear a "crispy" sound like toast at one point. I evened out some of the bevel on one side of the point. Now I can't hear it anymore though. I'm going to try flattening the stones again.

Best bevel test is to try to shave your arm or leg with all part of the blade. If it shaves effortlessly the bevel is set, otherwise back to the stone.
My experience is that it always take a lot longer than you'd expect.
Once bevel is set, the rest is a lot faster. Even the 3 to 12K jump might be OK.

totorlekiller said:

Best bevel test is to try to shave your arm or leg with all part of the blade. If it shaves effortlessly the bevel is set, otherwise back to the stone.
My experience is that it always take a lot longer than you'd expect.
Once bevel is set, the rest is a lot faster. Even the 3 to 12K jump might be OK.

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So the HHT should work after just using the 1k?

Before leaving your 1K stone you must be able to cut arm hair at the skin level with ease. (Shave the hair on you arm) If you can't cut arm hair at the 1K level your bevel isn't set. Is the blade edge or the spine leading as you hone down the stone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKQPTNb2XVU

fram773 said:

So the HHT should work after just using the 1k?

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No. Cutting hair at the root (i.e. scrapping the skin) is a lot easier than HHT, which is measured at 1"+ from the point where you hold the hair.

Now, I tried once to strop the razor (linen and leather) after bevel was set, and I did get HHT. It might have been a fluke as often, I don't even get it after 8K.

I honestly think you should forget about the HHT during the progression. Consuming yourself with that is only going to frustrate you. You've got a number of tips helping you identify when the bevel is set and you should use those. First TNT. Make sure the entire edge is sticky and wants to grab your thumbnail.

As Mark suggests, shave some arm hair/leg hair and make sure the entire length of the blade is easily cutting hair; this is not the hht, this is cutting hair at skin level. Don't move past your 1k until this can be achieved.

I have no experience with your stones but depending on how fast your 3k stone is, it might take some effort to remove the 1k scratches. If you could include pictures of your stone during the honing process to show us the swarf build up, it might give us an idea of how fast your stone is. Perhaps take a picture when you first see swarf and let us know how many strokes that took.

Moving from 3k to 12k isn't something I'd personally do, ever. I'd at least add an 8k stone in there to bridge the gap. Knowing when the 12k has removed the 3k scratches isn't going to be easy for a new honer and getting a loupe might help.

a 10x to 30x loupe is good enough to give you an idea of what you're doing. Inspect it after your 1k stage is complete, then hone on your 3k and periodically verify what is happening. Think about looking ever 20 or 30 strokes to see what kind of change is being made to the bevel. Look at the bevel using more than one angle too, light can play tricks on you when trying to see scratches.

If you really are set on going from 3k to 12k I'd prepare yourself for some slow going. Again, use your loupe for verification and see what is happening to the bevel. Loupes are CHEAP on ebay, you don't need an optically perfect piece of hand ground glass to hone razors.

Again, I have no experience using your claimed 12k hone. Forget about grit ratings when it comes to naturals. All you should care about is whether or not it's capable of producing a nice shave.

From the listing, it suggests you raise a slurry on your stone and finish on clear water. You are going to have to play with that and see which gives you the better shave.

Honing on slurry is another issue you're going to have to deal with. Learning how much slurry, how thick/thin it should be, etc is all part of the fun of honing.

I also notice that you finished the stone to 220grit sand paper on glass. I personally never finish the surface of a stone below 600grit. On your finishing stone try lapping it further with some higher grit paper.

Brooksie967 said:

Moving from 3k to 12k isn't something I'd personally do, ever. I'd at least add an 8k stone in there to bridge the gap. Knowing when the 12k has removed the 3k scratches isn't going to be easy for a new honer and getting a loupe might help.

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I tried last night to jump from 4K (Norton - i.e. 6 microns) to 16K (Shapton - i.e. 0.9 microns) with only in between about 50 polishing circles on a ruby (~5K). It worked (although I have not shave tested the blade), but I suspect the Shapton glass stone is a faster cutter than most stone. Especially the cheap natural Chinese sold as 12K. I gave up on my C12K a while ago, but before that getting any results from it after a Norton 8K took forever. I might pull it out of the closet some day, but that would most likely be to just smoothen a polish made with a Synthetic 10 or 12K stone.

Brooksie967 said:

I'd at least add an 8k stone in there to bridge the gap. Knowing when the 12k has removed the 3k scratches isn't going to be easy for a new honer and getting a loupe might help.

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You can get a thin Naniwa 8K at a very reasonable price. I have the 10K and it is a great stone. Even if your 12K does not yield result, a naniwa 8K is below 2 microns and would give you an edge still a bit raw, but one you can shave off.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-wh...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item5af846ce7b

Brooksie967 said:

Loupes are CHEAP on ebay, you don't need an optically perfect piece of hand ground glass to hone razors.

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I personally use this one. It is a pain to calibrate, but works reasonably well after, a fits Jeremy's description of dirt cheap (I bought a second one when the battery on the first died as it was easier than replacing it).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Pocket...167?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5af407042f

Check to make sure the stones are flat and the bevel passes a TNT before trying to refine the edge.

Ok I feel like a fool. I was grabbing by the shank and head and putting pressure on both.

Observing Lynn Abrams in this video cleared it up for me. Just use one hand on the tang.
I had seen other videos where people where using both hands but chances are they where just using the other hand for stabilizing- no pressure.

It was a big difference now. I still have work to do to because I prefer very sharp but it is at least shaving now.

Thanks for the help guys.

Too much pressure - no matter how it's applied, can flex the blade and cause issues. Some pressure is needed, too much is no good.
Localized or two-handed pressure have to be applied prudently.