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Edge or Spine lead. ?

I'm having trouble getting a solid answer on this (maybe there isn't one..)

When you guys hone your blades, do you;

stroke the blade with the EDGE leading the motion or,
do stroke the blades with the SPINE leading the motion (like when stroping) ?

I've seen/read instructions for both methods and results from either
do not seem to vary much.

As for me, i 'feel' that pushing the balde with the EDGE leading on a hone
is more effective and doesn't create a burr that later needs to be removed,
like running the edge lightly on a piece of soft wood.

Your thoughts.. ?

Thx. much
 

rockviper

I got moves like Jagger
Edge leading for the vast majority of strokes, but every now and then, I add in a few back-hone spine-leading strokes. If you think about honing using circles, that is a combination of both.
 
Spine leading.

Just kidding, edge leading.

Though some use both by doing what are called "half-strokes" where you go back and forth a number of times before flipping the razor.

Generally though, edge leading. Some guys with good microscopes have suggested that edge leading leaves the edge in better condition. It's also how things have been done for centuries because results speak for themselves.
 
I think most people hone edge- leading and I know I do :)

But there is another choice besides edge or spine- leading: moving the razor parallel with the edge. I personally find this works fantastically well for finishing the edge on a razor. It can be done on either a hard hone (natural stone, synthetic stone, film) or a soft hone (charged balsa, charged leather) but if done on a soft hone it absolutely requires just a tad of motion toward the spine just to absolutely ensure that the edge does NOT lead at all.

Brian

I'm having trouble getting a solid answer on this (maybe there isn't one..)

When you guys hone your blades, do you;

stroke the blade with the EDGE leading the motion or,
do stroke the blades with the SPINE leading the motion (like when stroping) ?

I've seen/read instructions for both methods and results from either
do not seem to vary much.

As for me, i 'feel' that pushing the balde with the EDGE leading on a hone
is more effective and doesn't create a burr that later needs to be removed,
like running the edge lightly on a piece of soft wood.

Your thoughts.. ?

Thx. much
 

ouch

Stjynnkii membörd dummpsjterd
I think most people hone edge- leading and I know I do :)

But there is another choice besides edge or spine- leading: moving the razor parallel with the edge. I personally find this works fantastically well for finishing the edge on a razor. It can be done on either a hard hone (natural stone, synthetic stone, film) or a soft hone (charged balsa, charged leather) but if done on a soft hone it absolutely requires just a tad of motion toward the spine just to absolutely ensure that the edge does NOT lead at all.

Brian


Your new Delta Chi name is Fearless Leader.
 
I don't think there is a solid answer other than this;
If it works for you - and you like doing it, then do it.

I hone edge leading - but not for any particular reason other than that's how I saw others hone.
If you get the edge that works for you - then that's the way to hone.
But - always remember. Another technique might bring along an edge you like better.
 
I hone edge leading, but I do use half X strokes which is both as has been pointed out earlier. After my Half X's I always do some full X strokes edge leading. I started doing it this way because of an old wives tale I was told as a kid. The old timers said that edge leading improved the grain structure in the steel at the leading edge. Now age makes me think this is pure porcine soap (hog wash), but the habit is so ingrained now I don't see me changing.
 
Great reply's fellas, Thx much.

Yes Doc, that video is the one that tipped the scales and made me ask.
I'm relieved to hear that most of you, edge-lead. That's the way I've sharpened
everything my whole life. Except for the strop.

How about newspaper, does anyone find that beneficial also ?
 
I hone edge leading, but I do use half X strokes which is both as has been pointed out earlier. After my Half X's I always do some full X strokes edge leading. I started doing it this way because of an old wives tale I was told as a kid. The old timers said that edge leading improved the grain structure in the steel at the leading edge. Now age makes me think this is pure porcine soap (hog wash), but the habit is so ingrained now I don't see me changing.

I hear you, and it didn't really want to change either.

But the only thing that can improve/worsen/change the 'grain structure' in steel, is temperature.
However, I understand what the those old-timers were trying to tell you.
IMO, I think it gives a better 'grind-structure' to an edge.
 
The challenge is the subjectivity of what constitutes an acceptable shave. If the only edge you ever shaved with came off of back strokes on a Norton 8k followed by newspaper, then that would be your baseline. For others it is a full JNat progression followed by a treasured Arkansas SB. But there can be objectivity to our pursuits. I have no doubt from reading and watching some of your videos, that many of you who have been honing for a decade or more are operating from a superior baseline.
 
I don't think there is a solid answer other than this;
If it works for you - and you like doing it, then do it.

I hone edge leading - but not for any particular reason other than that's how I saw others hone.
If you get the edge that works for you - then that's the way to hone.
But - always remember. Another technique might bring along an edge you like better.

Same here.
Edge leading because that is the way Youtube says it is done.
And it works.

Now, I can not really understand why it would matter.
 
Edge leading as well.. for most of the honing.

When I get to 16k I do three sets.. Set one is three x-strokes each way edge leading, no pressure. Set two is two x-strokes each way, spine leading with the same angle and set three is one x-stroke edge leading.

Done.
 
I think most people hone edge- leading and I know I do :)

But there is another choice besides edge or spine- leading: moving the razor parallel with the edge. I personally find this works fantastically well for finishing the edge on a razor. It can be done on either a hard hone (natural stone, synthetic stone, film) or a soft hone (charged balsa, charged leather) but if done on a soft hone it absolutely requires just a tad of motion toward the spine just to absolutely ensure that the edge does NOT lead at all.

Brian

I tend to do what I call laterally-biassed X-passes at the start, in the belief that it helps to even out the wear, leading to more longitudinally biassed X-passes towards the end. But these are always edge-leading passes.

Edge-leading or spine-leading on the stones is a question I often think about but don't have an answer to as yet. A while back, I came across an old lab manual (maybe 100 years old) that advocated an edge-leading progression on a coticule with water, followed by a spine-leading finish on a black Arkansas with oil; so the notion of using a spine-leading approach on the stones is not new. This was followed by stropping on leather charged with extremely fine carborundum powder.

I have tried one spine-leading method with a coticule to try and get a little more oomph out of it: after edge-leading passes with water, dry the stone and razor off, and then sort of buff the surface of the stone with the palm, followed by 3-6 spine-leading laps on the stone used dry. Seems to help a little, but it may just be a little bit of psychological hocus-pocus.

Most of the spine-leading methods seem to concern the end of the honing process (if that's what it still is, with a spine-leading pass), but the owner of the company who makes the Pyrenees stones recommends a spine-leading pass with his stones, which are a bit further down on the totem pole.
 
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At the moment - I'm taking about 1/16" off a heavy W&B.
I'm using a majority of edge leading 1/2 strokes mixed up with some circles, and x-strokes in both directions (heel/toe and toe/heel).
I'm not really concerned with refinement at this stage - steel has to go and anything that keeps the cutting action at it's peak is favored over tradition of any kind. I started this last night on a 180x stone, and moved to a 400x after the bevel faces appeared and looked to be cooperative.
When the bevel looks like a bevel from stem to stern, I'll move from the 400x to the 800x and then I'll start worrying about scratch angles and such. By the time I get to the 800x - the 1/2 strokes and circles will no longer be neccessary. Right now the bevel is pretty messy though. Lotta black swarf on the honing mat too.
 
I do not believe that there are any "rules" about edge leading, circles are a good combination stroke that includes all of the motions, but I like to keep things neat and even in the finishing stages and under good magnification straight on edge leading strokes look logical scratch wise to my eye.


With this said I mostly hone with a slurry of some type, and with stones that provide some small amount of slurry on their own, my thoughts are developed with slurry or loose particles playing some part in the honing process. Hones so hard that slurry is not an issue respond well to other techniques that I might not be familiar with.

Honing a razor or any tool is about friction, choosing the correct and familar abrasive step by step and applying the appropriate pressure so that burrs are kept to a minimum. If you think about it like a car you are driving, the front being the edge and the rear the spine, the road is the stone and the motion of honing is the motion of the car. Most of the time all is well, but if you have driven in the snow and spun out, well it can be like either fun or hell. Driving in reverse requires lots of caution but going forward is sort of logical and you got a windshield as an aid. If you slam on the breaks as a rule lots of weird things can happen because the motion of the car is interrupted.

Where slurry is concerned it can act like oil on the highway or marbles on the stone reducing friction. Edge leading strokes have a better chance of undercutting the slurry leading to better access to the stone, spine leading strokes allows the edge to ride above the slurry as the trailing edge or back of the car. If friction is work (the work of honing a razor) the job of utilizing that work happens at the point of the most resistance. If you are driving a car and you hit a tree the front of the car suffers from the work of destruction, not the back of the car. For razor honing the controlled destruction and rebirth of the edge happens more easily with edge leading strokes.

There are techniques used that work well with spine leading strokes that can coax very fine edges out of a razor, but as mentioned above they are mostly used at the very end of a honing session after most of the work has already been done and I suspect that these techniques are best used with slurryless stones.



Driving or honing edge leading, the way I see it, allows you to focus all of the energy of motion on the edge. The friction really is only necessary for us at the edge, we only hone the edge. If you are driving you car forward and apply the brakes the car tilts forward and down as the friction of the tires and the road and the back or spine lifts up. With edge leading strokes it seems logical to me that the friction engages the edge and the stone more closely, with spine leading stroke the energy is focused on the spine. With edge leading strokes the blade more easily undercuts the slurry/water, with spine leading the edge rides more easily on top of the slurry with a more passive cutting action.

just my 3 cents worth.

Alex
 
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