wire edge removing and polishing of true edge.

caleb31 · Oct 19, 2014

a useful tip to remove a wire or false edge after creating one is to simply strop from the toe of the razor and then reverse the movement back again (with out lifting the razor from the hone ) repeating once on both sides.something i've successfully reapeated for my self.salute. CAM.

☞⊙☜ thoughts? [emoji52]

rockviper · Oct 19, 2014

Do you mean "strop" as in "do this on leather?" or to use spine-leading strokes when honing? I sure hope it's the latter.

Avenolpey · Oct 19, 2014

rockviper said:
Do you mean "strop" as in "do this on leather?" or to use spine-leading strokes when honing? I sure hope it's the latter.

Some folks consider spine leading to be stropping.

caleb31 · Oct 20, 2014

lead with the spine of the razor then reverse it.on your hone of course.salute.

rockviper · Oct 20, 2014

Whew, all the auction giddiness made my brain fuzzy. I generally back-hone (i.e. spine leading) a little already, so I think I'm good to go.

caleb31 · Oct 20, 2014

very good.∈▓

Sharpchef · Oct 20, 2014

I think you can`t remove the wire edge with strokes (whatever direction) on a hone.

Pulling the edge carefully throu hard wood, cork or stropping on hemp/linen should be the way to go. Edge leading strokes are recommendet for wire edge reduction mostly......

I will try your method, maybe you are right.

Greets Sebastian.

caleb31 · Oct 20, 2014

hi sebastion , i really do not know if it is superior to stropping it off.however i do know that before raising my grit ie going up in terms of hones 4k to 6k to 8k 10k and then my finisher i do this. i receive a very close and comfortable shave along with a highly durable edge ie low failure rate / high shaves on the edge.salute and give it a try sir. CAM.
[emoji1]

Avenolpey · Oct 20, 2014

Circles are essentially some forward some back and some sideways. I do lots of circles through the progression whether Coticule dilutions or JNat.

caleb31 · Oct 20, 2014

👍 a great option.

theycallmefix · Oct 22, 2014

I think I have this wire edge problem. Every razor I hone is sharp enough to shave, but doesn't really seem to become a good razor until after a shave or two.
On my woodworking chisels I remove the wire edge by drawing through wood, as previously mentioned, but I hesitate to do this with the razors. I considered drawing through scrap leather, but haven't tried it yet.

Perhaps your method will work for me. It's worth a shot.

I also have a linen strop. Maybe one of the options will help me get past the first two uncomfortable shaves I have with every newly honed razor.

Avenolpey · Oct 22, 2014

theycallmefix said:
I think I have this wire edge problem. Every razor I hone is sharp enough to shave, but doesn't really seem to become a good razor until after a shave or two.
On my woodworking chisels I remove the wire edge by drawing through wood, as previously mentioned, but I hesitate to do this with the razors. I considered drawing through scrap leather, but haven't tried it yet.

Perhaps your method will work for me. It's worth a shot.

I also have a linen strop. Maybe one of the options will help me get past the first two uncomfortable shaves I have with every newly honed razor.

What is your honing progression. Stones, slurry etc...

Gamma · Oct 22, 2014

Some, maybe all, wire edges can be removed on a hone.
X strokes and circles will, usually, avoid the issue for the most part.
Once a wire develops, careful strokes with judicious use of pressure can/will/has taken wire edges off for me.
Circles are probably more effective at avoiding them, but x-strokes seem to work better for me overall so that's how I hone for the most part.

Head-on and 1/2 strokes are more prone to creating them I think, but it does depend on the hone.
For example - I don't think it's possible to get a wire edge on a Coti.

If we're talking about an itsy bitsy microscopic 'burr' type of false edge - that's something else, and to me that's not a wire.
A wire edge will, most of the time, fail in use; usually it'll just fold over. I suppose that there are many 'stages' of wire edges and many possibilities though.
In my experience - when a wire falls off, gets stropped off, etc - the edge is not in shaving condition and stropping it on leather wouldn't bring it back.

markg · Oct 22, 2014

Pardon my ignorance. What exactly is a wire edge and how can you tell that one was created?

theycallmefix · Oct 23, 2014

Avenolpey said:
What is your honing progression. Stones, slurry etc...

I use Arkansas stones, and finish on a red barber stone. So, I amm lacking in expensive stones at the moment. I still manage to get shave ready results though.
I finish on a leather strop with some white buffing compound.
The wire edge only seems to be a problem for me on newly restored razors. I think the bevel setting on a damaged razor leaves the edge. I never have the problem when just touching up an already sharp razor.
Anyway, I tried the linen strop last night. I gently drug the razor edge first along the linen for a couple swipes and then restropped. Worked like a charm.the razor is much better now.

Someday I'm going to get some nice hones to work with, but I get good results with the hard Arkansas stones for now.

Steve56 · Oct 23, 2014

Markg,

A wire edge is unremoved metal beyond where the the two bevels should normally meet and end as the cutting edge. It is usually caused by heavy (for a razor, not a knife) pressure on a coarse stone. I recently used a 400 Atoma plate to remove a frown from a razor using quite a bit of pressure and back-and-forth strokes and it produced a very pronounced wire edge very quickly. You our can both see it and feel it with your fingers.

I've always been able to hone a wire edge off with my normal honing sequence which would start with 2 sets of 20 circles/ellipses followed by 40 x-strokes. If I've produced a wire edge as pronounced as the one the Atoma produced in edge correction, I like to join the edge early on, usually after the 1k bevel setter followed by a touch up on the bevel setter. Joining an edge is drawing it lightly on wood or even the hone. This must be done very, very, lightly with a razor and it is intended to remove any wire edge remnants and undesirable artifacts from the coarse hones or the earlier stages of honing.

Cheers, Steve

alx gilmore · Oct 23, 2014

Good posts Keith and Steve. I also end up with a wire edge if I only hone one side of the razor, and this is especially with the heavy grits. In this case the false edge just begins to roll over more and more creating a wire. Found that if you try to treat both sides of the blade equally there is less of a false edge and almost eliminates the wire development.

Alex

Gamma · Oct 23, 2014

markg said:
Pardon my ignorance. What exactly is a wire edge and how can you tell that one was created?

A wire edge looks a little like a wire sitting on top of what would normally be the cutting edge. As noted, it's metal that protrudes forward of what would be the actual edge, but it differs from a foil edge in that it's less fin-like. Both (all) distractions at the edge can and will cause grief at one point or another, so it's best to clear them.

A wire or foil can be created on any hone - although most people probably do most of the damage on lower grits. But it's easy enough to do on a finisher also. Barber hones are notoroious for this and as Iwasaki noted, so are Jnats in the finishing stage. A lot of factors play into the recipe, slurry, pressure, stone hardness, steel hardness, stroke type, etc. Barber hones though, some can bring up a wire really fast - even with light pressure and short strokes. This is one of the reasons why many b-hone instructions say 4-5 strokes is all thats needed. It's also one of the reasons why Coticules are so popular for razors - getting a wire or burr is almost impossible on one of those stones.

You can feel a wire edge on the stone when honing sometimes, they can flop around the edge feedback won't be consistent.
Occasionally bits can break off the wire, and you'll feel them under the blade as you pass over them. You can see them under magnification and sometimes they can be felt with your thumbpad by dragging it across the edge (across, not along). They can break off fairly easily when stropping - and sometimes you can hear the difference in sound on the leather - linen too but it much more muted. I watched one come off when I was stropping on canvas and it pulled away only partially - it looked like a hair coming off the edge. A foil edge looks like, well - foil. They seem, to me, to be much harder to remove but easier to identify initially.

Knife and tool sharpeners bring up a burr intentionally and then part of their process is to remove it - with razors it's not neccessary to create one and removing it is a set-back, not a step forward. The difference between a burr and a wire is notable or subtle - depending on ones chosen discipline and how deep into minutea they want to go.

Whatever the case, It's a well known old-time practice for sharpening heavier tools but not something anyone honing razors really needs to get involved in. IMO - putting burr on a razor and then removing it is like wrecking a car so you can fix it. Unless of course one is testing the limits of the edge/stone/progression or whatever - then burr/wire creation is almost inevitable and just part of the deal.

I just about have a perfect burr on a Swedish single bit axe that I was sharpening tonight. When I actually do get that burr perfect then I'll work on removing it and then I'll finish-polish the bevel.
Spyderco has (or had, was a long time ago) an interesting page on this, and most knife forums will have numerous threads about burr removal.

MikekiM · Oct 25, 2014

Great post...

Gamma said:
A wire edge looks a little like a wire sitting on top of what would normally be th ecutting edge. As noted, it's metal that protrudes forward of what would be the actual edge, but it differs from a foil edge in that it's less fin-like. Both (all) distractions at the edge can and will cause grief at one point or another, so it's best to clear them.

A wire or foil can be created on any hone - although most people probably do most of the damage on lower grits. But it's easy enough to do on a finisher also. Barber hones are notoroious for this and as Iwasaki noted, so are Jnats in the finishing stage. A lot of factors play into the recipe, slurry, pressure, stone hardness, steel hardness, stroke type, etc. Barber hones though, some can bring up a wire really fast - even with light pressure and short strokes. This is one of the reasons why many b-hone instructions say 4-5 strokes is all thats needed. It's also one of the reasons why Coticules are so popular for razors - getting a wire or burr is almost impossible on one of those stones.

You can feel a wire edge on the stone when honing sometimes, they can flop around the edge feedback won't be consistent.
Occasionally bits can break off the wire, and you'll feel them under the blade as you pass over them. You can see them under magnification and sometimes they can be felt with your thumbpad by dragging it across the edge (across, not along). They can break off fairly easily when stropping - and sometimes you can hear the difference in sound on the leather - linen too but it much more muted. I watched one come off when I was stropping on canvas and it pulled away only partially - it looked like a hair coming off the edge. A foil edge looks like, well - foil. They seem, to me, to be much harder to remove but easier to identify initially.

Knife and tool sharpeners bring up a burr intentionally and then part of their process is to remove it - with razors it's not neccessary to create one and removing it is a set-back, not a step forward. The difference between a burr and a wire is notable or subtle - depending on ones chosen discipline and how deep into minutea they want to go.

Whatever the case, It's a well known old-time practice for sharpening heavier tools but not something anyone honing razors really needs to get involved in. IMO - putting burr on a razor and then removing it is like wrecking a car so you can fix it. Unless of course one is testing the limits of the edge/stone/progression or whatever - then burr/wire creation is almost inevitable and just part of the deal.

I just about have a perfect burr on a Swedish single bit axe that I was sharpening tonight. When I actually do get that burr perfect then I'll work on removing it and then I'll finish-polish the bevel.
Spyderco has (or had, was a long time ago) an interesting page on this, and most knife forums will have numerous threads about burr removal.

hig789 · Oct 26, 2014

markg said:
Pardon my ignorance. What exactly is a wire edge and how can you tell that one was created?

You sharpen knives? It is essentially the same as raising a burr on a knife before you move to the other side.

Edit: guess I should have read the whole thread first. Lol Keith hit it on the head.

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