Apparently European water is even harder than most American water. I don't understand the KOH to NaOH ratio not hurting, does the reaction speed change here? It would seem to that either way the kinetics would be the same so I can't imagine that the reaction speed would change appreciably. The Na ion would be more stable conjugate base compared to K due to size...
Can We Categorise The Artisan Shave Soaps?
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Apparently European water is even harder than most American water. I don't understand the KOH to NaOH ratio not hurting, does the reaction speed change here? It would seem to that either way the kinetics would be the same so I can't imagine that the reaction speed would change appreciably. The Na ion would be more stable conjugate base compared to K due to size...
Potassium salts common as products of saponification are more soluble in water than sodium salts, ceteris paribus.
Michelle, thanks for your illuminating clarifications. I've had such bad experiences with artisan shaving soaps (not yours, I hasten to add; my samples I ordered from you were lost in the mail.)
Interesting that the bentonite clay is used in such tiny proportions. I assumed that the consistent thing I disliked about all the soaps I tried was the bentonite, but maybe not. All four artisan brands I tried were uniformly awful, so I retreated to a few brands that I know and trust. I think I will be sticking my head above the parapet and ordering some more; once burned, twice burned.
Interesting that the bentonite clay is used in such tiny proportions. I assumed that the consistent thing I disliked about all the soaps I tried was the bentonite, but maybe not. All four artisan brands I tried were uniformly awful, so I retreated to a few brands that I know and trust. I think I will be sticking my head above the parapet and ordering some more; once burned, twice burned.
I have no idea how to classify them but here are my impressions:
Mike's Natural - I tried three different samples and couldn't get them to lather at all and didn't like the smell (very chemical). Just basically swirling giant foam bubbles around.
Stirling - Tried about a dozen samples and they ranged from decent to very good. It's a very sticky, malleable soap. Doesn't foam up as much as most soaps and tends to be slick, but doesn't seem to be quite as protective as other soaps. Mine were from early 2014.
RazoRock - Current formulation was really, really slick, not very foamy, more so than Stirling, but more forgiving and easier to make lather. Very good. Softer soap again, between Mike's and Stirling maybe.
Mama Bear - Tried one sample, it's a hard glycerin soap, strong scent. I got a good lather, maybe similar to VDH give or take, didn't like the smell as much.
SCS - Got a full puck and tried a few lathers. Very easy to lather, slick too, maybe a bit more foamy than RR or Stirling.
Mike's Natural - I tried three different samples and couldn't get them to lather at all and didn't like the smell (very chemical). Just basically swirling giant foam bubbles around.
Stirling - Tried about a dozen samples and they ranged from decent to very good. It's a very sticky, malleable soap. Doesn't foam up as much as most soaps and tends to be slick, but doesn't seem to be quite as protective as other soaps. Mine were from early 2014.
RazoRock - Current formulation was really, really slick, not very foamy, more so than Stirling, but more forgiving and easier to make lather. Very good. Softer soap again, between Mike's and Stirling maybe.
Mama Bear - Tried one sample, it's a hard glycerin soap, strong scent. I got a good lather, maybe similar to VDH give or take, didn't like the smell as much.
SCS - Got a full puck and tried a few lathers. Very easy to lather, slick too, maybe a bit more foamy than RR or Stirling.
Beer Soap Brewing Company uses EDTA in his non- tallow soaps, for sure. I don't know if he puts it into his tallow soaps, as well.
These non- tallow soaps are some of the best lathering soaps currently available, IMO, and my water isn't even hard.
This thread is epic!
To the original intent, I would love to have a listing of soaps by their properties. As has been noted DR Harris is great, but hard and therefore more difficult to lather in puck form (for me anyway). Lately I've revisited some old RR soaps from the Linea Officina line, and I just love them...soft soap, super lather produced. I'd like to 'shop' soaps by looking at those with similar properties, and also know the difference between these different lines.
To the original intent, I would love to have a listing of soaps by their properties. As has been noted DR Harris is great, but hard and therefore more difficult to lather in puck form (for me anyway). Lately I've revisited some old RR soaps from the Linea Officina line, and I just love them...soft soap, super lather produced. I'd like to 'shop' soaps by looking at those with similar properties, and also know the difference between these different lines.
Yes but what does that have to do with soap scum? Soap scum is the soap binding with the Mg or Ca ions to produce an insoluble precipitate. I guess if anything it will speed up the formation of the calcium or magnesium precipitates resulting in a faster load?!
Anyway, much ado about nothing, empirically potassium soaps do seem to lather quite well while some sodium ones not so much. Haven't personally tried a pure potassium soap that doesn't work well yet.
As for EDTA, I know theoretically it works. I love my Speick sticks which seem to certainly lather up with a couple brushes on the face where some other sticks need extra product added to the face. I'm not sure if you took the EDTA out if it would matter enough (with my water) to change the experience.
i can tell you how to think about EDTA though, it is a value proposition. It will prevent soap scum from being formed and generally make soaps lather with less product with hard water. So as a soap maker is this ideal? Not sure. It also will work as a preservative to some extent by chelating metal ions otherwise available, thus its use in drinking sodas correct? Perhaps its preservative value is of equal if not greater importance to its effect on lather. That being said, many if not most would rather have products with minimal chemicals and EDTA sounds like a chemical someone wouldn't trust. I can't explain that psychology as even water is a chemical.
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This is a great thread, although I almost feel like an advanced chemistry degree is required for admission.
With respect to this, I've found that Synergy 2.0 and PPF are almost identical in performance. Original Synergy is much harder than 2.0 and PPF, however performance is similar. But, if I had an unscented puck of PPF and an unscented puck of Synergy 2.0, in unmarked containers, I'm not sure I would be able to tell the difference between the two shaves. And that's a good thing; both are fantastic.
Exactly. Besides, the amount of EDTA that one would use to chelate minerals in a soap would be minute and even the Environmental Working Group's "Skin Deep " website lists it as an ingredient of "low toxicity" and then only for certain applications. But our customer's perception is important and many equate a simpler ingredient list with a more desirable product.
Depends on their processes and/or how detailed the recipe was. You can batch soap in a way where the recipe would give consistent results every time or not.
And I don't use it because I'm lazy and it's not necessary. Raising K-Laurate levels accomplishes the same effect for me without requiring me to learn how to use edta safely and properly. EDTA is great in shave soaps, really makes a soap more consistent. There are precious few commercial -hard- soaps without it that work well. But soft soaps don't really require it.
The old-fashioned solution to lathering in hard water was to use more soap. K-soaps naturally tend to consume more product with the same amount of loading.
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I know nothing about soap production, but I thought someone said HTGAM Synergy is melt-and-pour, and it lathers nicely?
HTGAM is absolutely NOT melt and pour. It is handmade from scratch, both original Synergy and Synergy 2.0. Both lather very well, but I think the Synergy 2.0 is one of the best soaps on the market today.
My understanding of EDTA is that it is non-toxic and not really absorbed to any appreciable degree; however, it apparently facilitates the absorption of other things in the soap. Based on this information, I'd have to say that in an otherwise pure soap without parabens, etc., the presence of EDTA doesn't bother me at all.
I think shavers, in general, would be happier with artisan soaps if they contained EDTA, to be honest, because it would eliminate some of the lathering problems that our friends who suffer with hard water issues (provided they didn't know EDTA was in the formula, lol).
There are exceptions to every rule. It is a rule however that using sodium will help make a harder soap. A soap made with KOH will be harder when the same recipe is used to make one with NaOH. Sort of on the opposite side of the spectrum, you cannot make a suitable soft soap (like a pumpable one) with NaOH.
These bits of information are meant to help people make some decisions based on what they see so they can be educated consumers. The history of why some soaps are they way they are is important, but they do not serve as confining rules.
And do you know for a fact the same recipe would not lather more quickly if it were made with only KOH? That a pure KOH soap dissolves quicker than the same soap made with NaOH is a fact, however it's a strawman fallacy to imply that a soap made with NaOH cannot lather well - that's not at all what I said. Solubility can (and has been) measured empirically.
Michelle makes a good point about customers not wanting it. I have always followed the "better living through chemistry" vein of thought though. EDTA is a life-saving chemical and it's not something that would scare me away from a soap. We can absolutely craft a soap which will behave in harder water without it (I did this for a friend who lives in Wichita) but one of the things that keeps me wondering is how to make the soap experience the same no matter who uses it where. EDTA and other chemicals can help us do that. I don't use it but I have some here I want to experiment with one of these days.
We are surrounded by chemicals. Everyone by now has heard of dihydrogen monoxide and how it can be dangerous in the wrong circumstances. Any chemical can be. I heard one soap maker telling a potential client that a competitor used lye and lye was dangerous - and that she hand-crafted her soap from only natural ingredients. I walked up and set that conversation right.
I've not tried every soap but I have a theory. As a couple people have pointed out, bentonite can be a useful ingredient when used to fix fragrance for instance. The problem arises when someone thinks that adding bentonite to their pet recipe makes it a shaving soap. That soap was crappy to begin with and adding dirt did not help. It doesn't take much to figure out who those people are.
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Ves, trust me. I had the same experiences. This was years ago and without beating it to death it was little more than bathing soap with some added ingredients that was being passed as shave soap. I should add there was NO intent to shortchange or mislead anyone with those soaps. This was in the infancy of the shave renaissance we are all enjoying and most of the soap makers were going out of their way to help out. It just took awhile for them to re-discover the old formulas and procedure. I knew it could be done but alas, had nearly sworn off the small maker stuff for horrid lack of performance. These latest incarnations are simply in another league. I really believe within a couple of years the acknowledged best soaps in the world will come from our artisans. Give them another go.
Jarick, thank you so much for that feedback. This is precisely what I am looking for from the consumer side. Not really 'ratings' but seat of the pants, personal opinion. 'This reminds me of that.' This one has an ingredient list like this other one' sort of thing. Again, this need not be exhaustive for you end users. I am just looking for a path to future brand to try. Though with the way I get on with Mystic Water it is going to be a tall order for me try much else!
Also, thank you to all parties for keeping this on the rails. We got off to a bit of a rocky start but it is working out well.
As I said, I will not pretend to be any sort of hand at soap making. I have not gotten to it and frankly with the selection now it is much easier for me to mouse click and just buy it. Still, I have read a great deal about it and with the subject to hand you can guess what direction my interests lay. I did want to ask about the milling process. It is my understanding that almost all commercial soaps use some chemical extraction or process(and have for a century or so) to remove the naturally occurring glycerin from the base soap and then add it back in some proportion at the milling and scenting stage. Is this at least somewhat correct? Also, I suggested above that milling an average soap does not make it better in and of itself but does milling add anything to the end product other than hardness and possibly a bit longer soap life? I am not advocating one way or the other but just wondering. i suppose it will happen one day that some small shop will take the plunge on milling equipment so I was just wondering. And last, as far as the chemical additives go, I can understand the desire to keep it simple but it sounds as if this EDTA or whatever it is might actually be something to consider. See, this is why I like the direction we are going with shave soaps. Pushing, experimenting, etc. Someday I will be able to call up some maker and essentially buy whatever I want. It just doesn't get any better!
You artisans, please feel free to be as exhaustive as YOU want to be! I would never encourage you to reveal a formula or process you have worked so hard to perfect but I am willing to read anything you want to share. You lot are unbelievable in your efforts to bring a bunch of picky old wet shavers some truly outstanding products. The combined knowledge and superb execution is nothing short of amazing to me. Four years ago I would not have given you a plugged nickel for any home crafted shave soap. Well, they always wound up being great bathing soaps but that was as good as it got. That is a distant memory now. Thank you for your efforts.
I couldn't tell you the first thing about making shave soap (or any soap for that matter) but I can give my opinion on the artisan soaps that I have tried:
HTGAM Synergy (original formula):Easy to load, easy to lather. I don't think it's the slickest or densest soap out there but it's ok. Post shave it's ok as well..not drying, but not overly moisturizing..perfect for someone with normal skin. Both scents that I have I like (lime and coconut bay..neither are over powering but they are present) Pretty hard puck.
Mike's Naturals: I have used 1 sample, and 1 full tin..the sample just would not lather right, but the full tin worked better. It takes more to load this soap than most others I used, lathers ok. It has a great post shave feel (thinking the lanolin helps). The scents I had Orange, Cedarwood &Black Pepper sample, and Barbershop full tin were both excellent to my nose. This is not as hard as Synergy, but not as soft as a croap.
Mystic Water: I have 1 full puck from them and it's my favorite artisan soap so far. For me it loads and lathers easily with a rich and slick lather (I know some have reported problems lathering this soap but for me it works) It's also the most moisturizing soap I have used as far as a post shave feel (I know the artisan said her soap has a high percentage of glycerin so that is what may help this soap out so much) The scent is spot on (lily of the valley), and the puck is on the softer side.
Wet Shaving Products Rustic Shave Soap: This is a newer artisan soap that was designed as a clone of Mdc (which I haven't used). The soap is soft when you first get it, but kind of hardens up after a few uses with water absorption. It loads and lathers as easily as any soap I have used. The scents (sandalwood, and barbershop) are both on the lighter side, but nice. Post shave it's a lot like Synergy. It''s up near the top for me as far as slickness
Those are the 4 artisan soap brands that I have tried so far. 2 of them are tallow based (Mike's, MW), 2 are vegan (WSP,HTGAM). So as far as the big tallow or non tallow debate, at least for me, I get good lathers out of both types of soaps.
HTGAM Synergy (original formula):Easy to load, easy to lather. I don't think it's the slickest or densest soap out there but it's ok. Post shave it's ok as well..not drying, but not overly moisturizing..perfect for someone with normal skin. Both scents that I have I like (lime and coconut bay..neither are over powering but they are present) Pretty hard puck.
Mike's Naturals: I have used 1 sample, and 1 full tin..the sample just would not lather right, but the full tin worked better. It takes more to load this soap than most others I used, lathers ok. It has a great post shave feel (thinking the lanolin helps). The scents I had Orange, Cedarwood &Black Pepper sample, and Barbershop full tin were both excellent to my nose. This is not as hard as Synergy, but not as soft as a croap.
Mystic Water: I have 1 full puck from them and it's my favorite artisan soap so far. For me it loads and lathers easily with a rich and slick lather (I know some have reported problems lathering this soap but for me it works) It's also the most moisturizing soap I have used as far as a post shave feel (I know the artisan said her soap has a high percentage of glycerin so that is what may help this soap out so much) The scent is spot on (lily of the valley), and the puck is on the softer side.
Wet Shaving Products Rustic Shave Soap: This is a newer artisan soap that was designed as a clone of Mdc (which I haven't used). The soap is soft when you first get it, but kind of hardens up after a few uses with water absorption. It loads and lathers as easily as any soap I have used. The scents (sandalwood, and barbershop) are both on the lighter side, but nice. Post shave it's a lot like Synergy. It''s up near the top for me as far as slickness
Those are the 4 artisan soap brands that I have tried so far. 2 of them are tallow based (Mike's, MW), 2 are vegan (WSP,HTGAM). So as far as the big tallow or non tallow debate, at least for me, I get good lathers out of both types of soaps.
Also Hydrogen hydroxide has the properties of an acid and a base at the same time, really amazing how dangerous it can be!
That and it dissolves more things than any other single chemical!
LASS - strong scents. Very soft soap and a good, dense but airy, slick lather. The soap is top notch, while the scents are more thrown together. One of the best performing soaps held back by lack of attention to detail in other areas.
Barristerr and Mann - dense lather. They describe it as thirsty but I didnt find it overly water loving. Their scents are more thoughtful than others with names befitting a fragrance house more than most artisan shaving soap producer. As well their packaging is better than most. This is only artisan to produce a more luxury product with the package and scents. The lather is also very good with their tallow soaps. I look forward to trying their vegan soaps. Has potential to be a much bigger brand given professional execution.
mike's naturals - dense lather, despite rave reviews from some gets mediocre reviews from others. It is certainly a usable shaving soap and does preform, but for me isn't optimal. It is soft, but not too soft, to mold it into a dish it took a quick nuking. It has clay in it.
HTGAM 2.0 - great lather will report back when I have used it more. Original packaging with large surface area.
Martin de Candre - vegetable shaving soap. Both scents are mild but composed, very deliberate and nothing experimental with their products. A true luxury product with respect to performance, scent and packing. perhaps equalled in preformance but has artful packaging and scents. The benchmark.
Barristerr and Mann - dense lather. They describe it as thirsty but I didnt find it overly water loving. Their scents are more thoughtful than others with names befitting a fragrance house more than most artisan shaving soap producer. As well their packaging is better than most. This is only artisan to produce a more luxury product with the package and scents. The lather is also very good with their tallow soaps. I look forward to trying their vegan soaps. Has potential to be a much bigger brand given professional execution.
mike's naturals - dense lather, despite rave reviews from some gets mediocre reviews from others. It is certainly a usable shaving soap and does preform, but for me isn't optimal. It is soft, but not too soft, to mold it into a dish it took a quick nuking. It has clay in it.
HTGAM 2.0 - great lather will report back when I have used it more. Original packaging with large surface area.
Martin de Candre - vegetable shaving soap. Both scents are mild but composed, very deliberate and nothing experimental with their products. A true luxury product with respect to performance, scent and packing. perhaps equalled in preformance but has artful packaging and scents. The benchmark.
