MGTOW. Selfish? (Or on target?

docholliday77 said:

To the extent that this is a reaction against the institutional feminization of boys
- not allowing them to play the games that boys want to play (soldier, king of the hill, etc)
- labeling normal boy rambunctiousness as ADHD and medicating the hell out of it
- teaching boys that normal masculine behavior and chivalry is sexist
- etc.

I would agree with "going our own way." However, I am also a very strong believer in boys growing up and becoming men. The earlier the better. This guy sounds like he missed that step.

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This sounds similar to what the French Education Ministry instituted immediately following the first world war. A whole generation of Frenchmen were raised with any reference to battlefield glory, valor, the responsibility of men, and the idea that France embodies values that are worth defending was quickly drummed out of the curriculum.

It was not drummed out of the German curriculum.

During the surrender ceremony on that train car, the French General Huntzinger told the Education Minister--who was present--"You are partially to blame for this."

Bad things happen when you try to socially engineer traditional male gender roles out of the equation.

I think that both men and women should go their own ways and not worry about what society or the opposite sex expects of them.

And sometimes you find the right person who also thinks their own way that is compatible and then you have a partner in life. Very cool.

But it only happens when you are willing to be your own person first. Take the women vs men thing out of the equation.

Commander Quan said:

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Citizen C said:

During the surrender ceremony on that train car, the French General Huntzinger told the Education Minister--who was present--"You are partially to blame for this."

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It was either that or own up to some pretty shoddy military strategy.

Citizen C said:

This sounds similar to what the French Education Ministry instituted immediately following the first world war. A whole generation of Frenchmen were raised with any reference to battlefield glory, valor, the responsibility of men, and the idea that France embodies values that are worth defending was quickly drummed out of the curriculum.

It was not drummed out of the German curriculum.

During the surrender ceremony on that train car, the French General Huntzinger told the Education Minister--who was present--"You are partially to blame for this."

Bad things happen when you try to socially engineer traditional male gender roles out of the equation.

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Well, it didn't work out so hot for the Nazis in the long run.

Vespasian said:

Well, it didn't work out so hot for the Nazis in the long run.

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Nope. The French made the mistake of planning for the next war based on the one that just ended and it bit them. We have been guilty of this same mistake, too. The French Resistance fought the Nazi tooth and nail. When I lived in Cleveland we had a neighbor who was shot down over France. If you mentioned something bad about them in front of him you would have gotten an ear full. The Resistance was the only thing between him and a prison camp.

The resistance and the French army fighting prior to surrender were entirely different in character and caliber, though. Many in the army surrendered too early and too easily. I think they didn't grasp that this was not just going to end with a quick treaty and a feel-good pat on the pack for Hitler and Germany.

Citizen C said:

During the surrender ceremony on that train car, the French General Huntzinger told the Education Minister--who was present--"You are partially to blame for this."
.

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I'd love to see a source for this. As far as I can tell, this story doesn't seem right. The plenipotentiaries for France were Huntziger, Bergeret, Le Luc and Noel. I believe the education minister at the time was Delbos, who was on the same fleeing ship to Casablanca as Daladier and others.

Haggises said:

I'd love to see a source for this. As far as I can tell, this story doesn't seem right. The plenipotentiaries for France were Huntziger, Bergeret, Le Luc and Noel. I believe the education minister at the time was Delbos, who was on the same fleeing ship to Casablanca as Daladier and others.

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So would I. For some reason there is a lot of French hatred in this country. Were it not for their military supplies and navy during the Revolutionary War, as well as financial support for the Dutch, we would all be speaking English right now. Oh, wait.....

Vespasian said:

Well, it didn't work out so hot for the Nazis in the long run.

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Well, no, because they ended up fighting countries that did NOT try to turn entire generations of young men into Alan Alda, as France attempted to do.

oc_in_fw said:

So would I. For some reason there is a lot of French hatred in this country. Were it not for their military supplies and navy during the Revolutionary War, as well as financial support for the Dutch, we would all be speaking English right now. Oh, wait.....

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My observation had nothing to do with disliking France. It was merely noticing that in WW1 France resisted Germany for years. In WWII, they folded in 6 weeks despite numerical superiority. Here is a quote from a Sowell article on the importance of education.

"In France between the two World Wars, the teachers' union decided that schools should replace patriotism with internationalism and pacifism. Books that told the story of the heroic defense of French soldiers against the German invaders at Verdun in 1916, despite suffering massive casualties, were replaced by books that spoke impartially about the suffering of all soldiers — both French and German — at Verdun.

Germany invaded France again in 1940, and this time the world was shocked when the French surrendered after just 6 weeks of fighting — especially since military experts expected France to win. But two decades of undermining French patriotism and morale had done their work."
http://www.creators.com/conservative/thomas-sowell/the-role-of-educators.html

And it appears the comment "You are partially responsible for the defeat" was directed at the head of the teachers' union, not the Education Minister. My mistake. I was going off something I read years ago.

I fear we're heavily into politics again.
Found a text it might be worth reading.

After the defeat, many joined the Resistance. Despite this, the Vichy government quickly blamed school teachers for the 1940 defeat and engaged in reprisals against them, especially those active in the SN. But, Siegel concludes, Vichy officials misplaced their blame, for the teachers in the late Third Republic sought to teach children about the realities of war in order to bring about a more peaceful and secure world. At the same time, they tied pacifism to a sense of French national identity and the need to defend the nation if necessary. "The origins of France's 'Strange Defeat' of 1940 ..." Siegel writes, "... do not lie in the classrooms of the late Third Republic" (p. 10)"
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=10882

I did read that review earlier this morning. It pointed out that not only Petain, but that members of the Resistance also blamed the pacifist curriculum of the preceding 20 years.

I do not think it wise to discount the impact of indoctrination in school. If it wasn't effective, then no state would bother with it. France embarked on a systematic indoctrination of its youth after WWI that Japan, Germany, Russia, America, and Great Britain pointedly did not embark on. France's army outnumbered Germany's and could've walked into the Ruhr while most of Germany's army was still in Poland. But it lacked the aggressive spirit to do so. And millions of people around the world died because of that lack of spirit.

What happened to MWGTOW?

French education and WW2?

We've gone off track.

oc_in_fw said:

So would I. For some reason there is a lot of French hatred in this country. Were it not for their military supplies and navy during the Revolutionary War, as well as financial support for the Dutch, we would all be speaking English right now. Oh, wait.....

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The USA still uses English units of measurement, while England uses the (French) metric system.

Go figure!

+1 for this. Hear, hear! Live your life for yourself and those you love.

professorchaos said:

Neither society in general nor women in particular are the problem. The only power others have over you is that which you give them. Rather, the problem is mass group think that encourages conformity and (tries) to punish individuality.

Being a free thinking individual should necessarily entail living a thoughtful life on your own terms.

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The problem with the arguments about the French "social engineering" after World War I making for a less martial character is that the French military and civilian leadership would have had their character formed before this alleged wimpification occurred.

Those affected by such social engineering would at the oldest be in there early 20's at the beginning of the war, with the majority being under the age of 16 - hardly the decision makers when it came time to make strategic and tactical decisions. Those who were making such decisions would have been born at the end of the 19th and beginning of the early 20th century and would have had most of their education before the first world war.

It is important to realize two things about post WW I Europe.

1. The trauma on the participating countries was tremendous. The cost in lost lives, casualties along with the physical destruction of involved was heavy for many years.

2. French society remained divided with beliefs ranging from outright Bolsheviks to ultra-conservatives who were sympathetic to the German National Socialist party. This animosity created by this distrust led to feelings of outright contempt between groups of Frenchmen.

3. France had the largest defense appropriations and the largest land army in western and central Europe. Arrogant leadership insisted on building the hugely expensive Maginot line and placing defensive troops along the Belgian border or even in Belgium, leaving a wide, lightly defended area at the Ardennes - which of course was an open invitation to the Germans.

Despite one's opinions on French social engineering for students between the two world wars, it's obvious that it could have had no bearing on the problems that plagued French leadership as the Nazi's ran roughshod through there country.

Citizen C said:

My observation had nothing to do with disliking France.

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I am sorry, I didn't mean it to come across that I thought you did. I meant in the population in general. In real life I seem to be a magnet for Francophobe I am sorry for the misunderstanding I caused.

oc_in_fw said:

I am sorry, I didn't mean it to come across that I thought you did. I meant in the population in general. In real life I seem to be a magnet for Francophobe I am sorry for the misunderstanding I caused.

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No sweat. I did and do believe that France--even now--embodies values worth defending...even though they often do or say things that make me rub my bald head in disbelief.

Redrako...great post.

I think the MGTOW movement, if there is one, is push back against a concerted effort in society, education, and culture to turn this guy:



Into this guy:



That is a simplification, to be sure.