Help with honing on JNat

I am honing on a 2x7 Shuobudani with Meijiro, Tomo(I think it is a piece of Nakayama and Tomo from diamond plate. I get smooth shaves, but I know there is another level. I can get HHT 1 or 2(after stropping) but I can't get past that. My bevels were all set on King 1k then Naniwa 3/8 then Coticule, then a lot of time on the Nagura's. I always get the same edge no matter the razor. I have worked 10's of hours with these stones and my result does not improve. The Shubuobudani is very hard and is properly lapped with DMT and finished lapping with C12k. I have narrowed my rotation to a Globusman 6/8 full hollow, W&B 6/8 1/4 hollow and a Ralf a Aust 7/8 full hollow. I have tried stopping at various Nagura slurries, slurry thickness and water. I have found any more than 4-5 strokes on water goes backwards. I never get HHT off the stone. This morning I took my Globusman through the Nagura's and tested. No HHT. I started a test shave and WTG on my cheeks was ok but when I got to my neck I had to stop. I did 40 laps on SRD webbing and tested and got HHT1 and a smoother shave. I then did 50 laps on a English a Bridle and got maybe HHT 2 and my normal shave result. I have varied pressure, slurry thickness etc... My bevels are all flat heel to toe and the scratches are all the same hazy natural finish.


Thanks in advance for your guidance and suggestions.

Any idea are welcome.

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Are you sure the bevel is done correctly?
Have you honed with greater success on other systems?

I am convinced the bevel is set. It was definitely set coming off the 1k and if not the time on the Coticule slurry surely finished it. The haze goes all the way to the edge. Then much time on the Nagura progression. The only other progressions I have had are Naniwa 3/8 to C12k. Then I switch the C12k for the Coticule. Similar result although the JNat seems sharper and smoother.

And, I did not set the bevel on the Ralf Aust. That was done by SRD.

Haze to the edge is not indicative of the bevel being set.

A few things to consider;
Return to 1k - test bevel for real. Don't just look at it, test it. TNT comes to mind.
Then - 3k - 8k - shave test the edge. You should have, at least, a good WTG pass.
If not - then your bevel isn't done. Nail this stage before you progress.

Once you have the 8k down pat, start on the Jnat - Botan, Mejiro. Work the hell out of each slurry.
Do not let it get thick or muddy ever. Keep it wet.
Then shave test.

You should be able to shave very well at this point, way better than the 8k edge.
If you pass.... go forward, if not - you have a fail in the Nagura slurry technique.

If you failed there - rework the Nagura slurry until you get better than the 8k edge.

If/when you pass there; return to the Jnat with Mejiro and progress to Tomo. Work the hell out of each slurry.
Do not let it get thick or muddy ever. Keep it wet.

You should be able to shave much better than before. If not, you have a fail in the Tomo slurry technique.

I will try this with the Sheffield and report back

Avenolpey said:

I am honing on a 2x7 Shuobudani with Meijiro, Tomo(I think it is a piece of Nakayama and Tomo from diamond plate. I get smooth shaves, but I know there is another level. I can get HHT 1 or 2(after stropping) but I can't get past that. My bevels were all set on King 1k then Naniwa 3/8 then Coticule, then a lot of time on the Nagura's. I always get the same edge no matter the razor. I have worked 10's of hours with these stones and my result does not improve. The Shubuobudani is very hard and is properly lapped with DMT and finished lapping with C12k. I have narrowed my rotation to a Globusman 6/8 full hollow, W&B 6/8 1/4 hollow and a Ralf a Aust 7/8 full hollow. I have tried stopping at various Nagura slurries, slurry thickness and water. I have found any more than 4-5 strokes on water goes backwards. I never get HHT off the stone. This morning I took my Globusman through the Nagura's and tested. No HHT. I started a test shave and WTG on my cheeks was ok but when I got to my neck I had to stop. I did 40 laps on SRD webbing and tested and got HHT1 and a smoother shave. I then did 50 laps on a English a Bridle and got maybe HHT 2 and my normal shave result. I have varied pressure, slurry thickness etc... My bevels are all flat heel to toe and the scratches are all the same hazy natural finish.


Thanks in advance for your guidance and suggestions.

Any idea are welcome.

.

Click to expand...

Gamma seems to really know inside out the use of nagura, so follow his advice and hopefully you will be maxing out your stones soon. Good luck with that.

I myself use a simpler one stone method with a built in tomo step, but either method, with the naguras or the one stone method sometimes you might find out that fewer strokes will get you where you want to be as far as maxing out the possibilities that any one particular stone can provide. Depending on your stone there is a chance that you are going past what I call a sweet spot. By the sweet spot I mean a place in the stroke count where the stone has completely removed the previous stones scratches at the edge (not talking about the body of the bevel, just the edge), or what I call the business end of the razor, and replaced them with its own scratches and thereby a Sharper State At Rest is achieved. Going beyond that State is not really making the razor any sharper unless you do something different on that stone like lightening the pressure or thinning out the slurry. These are the two most obvious or often quoted techniques.

Try reducing pressure, say cut it in half. Some JNats cut faster than you think, and too much pressure can easily reduce the edge.

I'm using something like a simplified coticule unicot (no tape), two sets of 20 circles/ellipses followed by 40 single X strokes, diluting the slurry and pressure until the final strokes are with just enough pressure to hold the blade on the stone, and with misty wet slurry. It's uncommon that this does not give me a decent HHT off the stone with one palm strop to clear the bevel of slurry.

Cheers, Steve

Gamma said:

...
Then - 3k - 8k - shave test the edge. You should have, at least, a good WTG pass.
...

Click to expand...

This.

Once you can do this successfully, go straight the tomo slurry. Less is more.

HonerSimpson said:

This.

Once you can do this successfully, go straight the tomo slurry. Less is more.

Click to expand...

I agree with you and Steve completely.

Alx

Well I ain't no fancy, big-city Jnat wielder; but I do know edge progression. WTG working but having to stop during XTG/ATG and HHT 1-2 = Your edge is barely past beveled. You're not doing enough on the 3k, 8k, or most likely both. You should try shaving off the 8k before complicating things with the Jnat (it's JIS, a whole different story than shaving of an 8k Norton). The shave won't be the best you've ever had, but it will be plenty capable of letting you complete the shave. If it feels like a bad edge and a bad shave, you're not done on the 8k.

Once that's hammered out if your problem continues then you add in your coticule. Get that shaving well. THEN you start working on your Jnat (with or without the coticule, gotta admit going synth to coti to nagura on Jnat just seems like a lot of extra work to me). Your problem is you're starting out trying to get 3-4 different honing methods working concurrently.

My first breakthrough with Jnats was honing to my chosera 10k and trying to maintain that sharpness. Lost the edge many times in this stage, slurry dulling and inexperience. Wasnt working the slurry enough and started out with HUGE slurries. But once you start rolling, everything seems more familiar and you get it. Hone and shave hone and shave. Great advice here as well.

alx gilmore said:

Gamma seems to really know inside out the use of nagura, so follow his advice and hopefully you will be maxing out your stones soon. Good luck with that.

I myself use a simpler one stone method with a built in tomo step, but either method, with the naguras or the one stone method sometimes you might find out that fewer strokes will get you where you want to be as far as maxing out the possibilities that any one particular stone can provide. Depending on your stone there is a chance that you are going past what I call a sweet spot. By the sweet spot I mean a place in the stroke count where the stone has completely removed the previous stones scratches at the edge (not talking about the body of the bevel, just the edge), or what I call the business end of the razor, and replaced them with its own scratches and thereby a Sharper State At Rest is achieved. Going beyond that State is not really making the razor any sharper unless you do something different on that stone like lightening the pressure or thinning out the slurry. These are the two most obvious or often quoted techniques.

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Alex, Can you please share your one stone method. I will try it on a different razor and see if it works better with my stone. Would it work with a very hard Shuobudani?

There is some contradiction of guidance here. One school says work the hell out of the slurry, my usual technique. The other school says less is more and go straight from 8k to Tomo and less is more. I started with the latter and no HHT until strop. I then went back to Miejiro and worked it and then Tomo and worked it. The bevel is prettier, but HHT is only slightly better. But the ATG was very smooth.

Could my Shuobudani be the limiter? Also it has very shined particles in it that I can feel individually. Almost like chatter. But the bevel does not seem to have any scratches related to these particles. Maybe 15-20 of them. When I lap they go away and then come back after some honing.

Probably the best way to eliminate the Shobudani is to send it to someone who knows enough to evaluate it. But if you can't get a reasonable HHT with one or two palm strops off the stone, there's likely something amiss, either technique or the actual fineness of the stone. If it's reasonably hard, it's likely also reasonably fine since in most cases those go together.

I use a 3-stone system a lot, a bevel setter, a mid-grit/pre-finisher, and a finisher with a tomo, either a worn out Atoma 1200 plate or a natural tomo. If I can't get a clean HHT with one palm strop of some kind off this particular middle stone, it isn't ready to finish. You can shave off it though it won't rock your world. This is consistent with what Honer Simpson said.

If if you feel the edge is ready to finish and the Shobu isn't cutting the mustard, it may be slow, some hard stones tend to be. Try 3-4 regimens of tomo slurry and see if that makes a difference.

Finally, don't push too hard. If a knife is not sharp enough you can push harder on the hone. This is IMO, not true of a razor, but it's likely our natural tendency.

Cheers, Steve

Avenolpey said:

There is some contradiction of guidance here. One school says work the hell out of the slurry, my usual technique. The other school says less is more and go straight from 8k to Tomo and less is more. I started with the latter and no HHT until strop. I then went back to Miejiro and worked it and then Tomo and worked it. The bevel is prettier, but HHT is only slightly better. But the ATG was very smooth.

Could my Shuobudani be the limiter? Also it has very shined particles in it that I can feel individually. Almost like chatter. But the bevel does not seem to have any scratches related to these particles. Maybe 15-20 of them. When I lap they go away and then come back after some honing.

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It's not a contradiction - it's just that there are different methods, skill levels, expectations, and so on.
Generally speaking - sharpening can be thought of as edge 'refinement' - how you get there is almost irrelevant.
Some say simple is best - I agree. To me - there's nothing more simple than going step by step.

Jumping over steps, IMO, is being lazy. Lots of people do that, and that's fine. I wish them good luck with that.
So there's my POV - one step at a time. No jumps, no leaps, leave no stone unturned. (small pun, couldn't help myself).

Sure - going from 8k to Tomo is possible. But you won't find where your fail point is that way, unless it's at the Tomo stage.
When there's an issue, like we have here, I'm a firm believer in locking down the variables as best possible, and testing in stages methodically. I'm not a big fan of 8k to Tomo edges though. I like to drop down further to a lower grit first. Plus, not testing the Nagura may leave a stone unturned.

In my experience, methodical incremental proofing works 100% of the time.
Not just with razors - I learned this by being OCD when developing film and custom printing. Lots of tricks and variables there - but when you're getting paid very well to do it, you have to be consistent and the only thing that matters is the final 'proof' - for real.
Besides - I prefer results and I hate drama and confusion. So - there's that. I just take one segment at a time and add the segments together one at a time, in order.

For me, 'results' refers to more than just shaving, but that's just my take on things.
For those that are into instant gratification, sub par results, and parlor tricks - there are other methods of getting somewhere.
I wish them good luck with those endeavors.

My opinion - I don't see the OPs situation as 'not getting an edge'.
What I see, is that there's a hole in the matrix.
To me - finding that hole and healing it is more important that trying to go around it.

I'd like to see this stone - got a pic? Can you show the things that have to be lapped down?

Thanks Gamma for taking the time for such detailed replies. And thanks to everyone for their suggestions and guidance. Here a two picks of the specs. On the photo they show up as sort of brown. Actually they are bright metallic specs of various sizes. As I hone they become more prominent. The tiny scratches are from pressing too hard with my Tomo. I get those out with the DMT and then I work it on a flat C12k to hopefully refine more.

For scale the stone is 2 inches wide.

Np. Sometimes I type too much though.

That pattern could be Harike. Not sure. I hope that's not what it is. I'd have to test it to be sure.

Is there anything test I can do to change the probability of it being Harike?

I just put the stone under better light and discovered it is not 15-25 particles but hundreds if not thousands. The vary in size and 15-25 are much larger but the entire surface is filled with tiny metallic sparkles.

You can see sparkles in this video.

http://youtu.be/EApjzSZmNgw

Harike is toxic needles - but just because there are sparkles does not mean you have Harike.
Sparkles that are just flecks and don't bother anything are fine.
Your comment about the bumpy nature is something - might be nothing though.

If the sparkly stuff is both bumpy and leaving notable scratches on the blade - it's something to be concerned about.

Edit

Is that one of Takeshi's Shobudani Karasu?

No, from JNS. I can definitely feel them. Could they effect the honing quality even if they don't leave not scratches. I will have to examine the edge further to determine. When I first got it I thought it was leaving scratches but second guessed myself as a beginner.

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Here is my original comment.

2014-03-20 18:43 GMT+01:00
Original message below. My results have improved a little but I am still struggling with the stone. I flattened the stone and lapped it with 600 sandpaper. I notice some shiny particles of varying sizes. Look either metallic or crystalline. I can feel them when honing. Is this normal for Shuobudani. Am I possibly not spending enough time on the stone. I am not getting HHT. I know my bevels are good. I have tried 5 different razors with similar results although best on Sheffield.

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I did notice scratches under a heavier microscope. This was second message after being told scratches were normal.

2014-03-26 1:57 GMT+01:

The hard particles I referred to in my previous email are obvious in this pic. I can feel 3-5 of them. Under the microscope 40-1600x reveals scratched and chunks out of the edge.

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As you can see, I have been struggling with this stone since March. I assumed I was the problem. I sort of gave up and accepted the edge I was getting as what I should expect as a novice. But I have been honing my *** off and it never got better.