I decided today to hone a previously shaving razor to 10k synthetic level and see. Regarding some posts about harshness and possibility that over refining may make the edge"too sharp" so thats what may be causing the irritation and weepers etc that are fairly common with a synthetic edge IMO anyway. This razor is a Sheffield 6/8, honed on 1k chosera, hideriyama suita and the gamut of naguras on a vintage nakayama asagi I have. I hit the 5k nubutama, then 10k suehiro for some circles laps and x strokes. No evidence of prior haze, the 5k took care of that. I I will say a slightly more comfortable shave than the 20k, although it still had the synthetic "feel". No weepers, a good shave for sure, but not my thing. Ive been thinking about doing this for a while, and am glad I did. Next stop is 3um lapping film with paper under to finish to see. I do not have an 8k stone anymore to try, although I have no desire to buy one. There may be some truth to over refined edges, but I think the next experiment will prove the same. The synthetic edge will be lacking in smoothness. At least to my face.
10k Shave
- Thread starter buca3152
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By 20k do you mean that $400 stone everyone loves that some say leaves an edge like a Jnat?
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- #4
Thats the one! Although the 10k does leave a very nice polish on the bevel. Much nicer IMO than the chosera 10. The 10k is 1UM according to suehiro. I dont know which system its rated with.
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- #5
Natural stones are rated Ive heard up to 15k. WHat I will say though is Ive shaved with much sharper edges that were definitely smoother than this one. But its all YMMV as always. The shaver is the ultimate judge. The feel off the synthetic is distinct though. At least thats what I feel.
Don't believe everything you read on the interweb! Some guys may try and convince you to shave with a DE blade glued to a chopstick!
Open your mind. You're already pre-judging your result:
Cmon now.
Open your mind. You're already pre-judging your result:
Cmon now.
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- #7
It would be helpful to know what you consider "smooth" - lack of irritation, minimal effort, etc.
I find synthetics to be the most difficult approach. Without slurry, there can be no convexity in the edge. So to achieve the required keenness, the edge becomes thin and weak (this depends on the steel, bevel angle, and whether the mid-grits have removed all the coarse grit damage).
I have produced excellent edges from a Shapton 16k, but not consistently. This tells me it can be done, and the problem is my honing. Typical successful approach is a maximized 8k edge and a dozen light strokes on the 16k. Around 20-30 strokes, the HHT drops, suggesting the edge has collapsed. around 50 strokes (on the 16k) brings back the HHT, but the edge fails during the shave (thin a weak).
These synthetic edges require very gentle stropping also.
Film with wet paper solves this issue, by introducing convexity (again depending on the steel, bevel angle, and whether the mid-grits have removed all the coarse grit damage).
Abrasive stropping solves this issue in a similar way, and with experimentation can produce an excellent edge.
A taped micro-bevel also works, but it requires at least 3 layers of tape, IME.
I am convinced that most high-grit synthetic edges collapse during the first shave, or even during stropping, and that toothy half-broken edge is what produces the harshness. With further use and stropping, a decent edge will usually form.
I find synthetics to be the most difficult approach. Without slurry, there can be no convexity in the edge. So to achieve the required keenness, the edge becomes thin and weak (this depends on the steel, bevel angle, and whether the mid-grits have removed all the coarse grit damage).
I have produced excellent edges from a Shapton 16k, but not consistently. This tells me it can be done, and the problem is my honing. Typical successful approach is a maximized 8k edge and a dozen light strokes on the 16k. Around 20-30 strokes, the HHT drops, suggesting the edge has collapsed. around 50 strokes (on the 16k) brings back the HHT, but the edge fails during the shave (thin a weak).
These synthetic edges require very gentle stropping also.
Film with wet paper solves this issue, by introducing convexity (again depending on the steel, bevel angle, and whether the mid-grits have removed all the coarse grit damage).
Abrasive stropping solves this issue in a similar way, and with experimentation can produce an excellent edge.
A taped micro-bevel also works, but it requires at least 3 layers of tape, IME.
I am convinced that most high-grit synthetic edges collapse during the first shave, or even during stropping, and that toothy half-broken edge is what produces the harshness. With further use and stropping, a decent edge will usually form.
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- #9
For me synthetics create a slight stingy feeling as Im shaving. Naturals do not. Whether it is the result of multiple bevels or not I cant be sure. DE blades are multi bevel and I get the same feel from them as well. Of the 30 or so Ive tried, some are "harsher" than others, but the feeling is there nonetheless. Ive experienced similar feels from naturals also. Many times although not lately. Ive also experienced the squeegee effect which is what I am in the process of learning to do at will. Ive never experienced that in using synthetic abrasives. So thats why Im chasing it. I am not a geologist or scientist. Im only expressing my observations.
Which is closer? I associate that "stingy feeling" during shaving with a less than keen edge and it always results in a less than close shave.
The multibevels on DE blades result in very large bevel angles at the edge , and I think the performance is not comparable to the angles resulting from a slight convexity on a 15 degree straight.
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- #11
While little basis for comparison: I'm using a GD that I touched up on an 8k -> 10k. It worked out nicely. While not as buttery smooth as my naturally honed Hart (I can't recall the stone but the claim was 20k+); it gave me a very nice, no-irritation, shave.
Perhaps my face isn't as sensitive as Homer's, as I don't have issue with the harshness of a DE shavette, and my experience pales next to most on this forum: I found the 10k worked out well.
I'm hoping that I won't get the itch to try something new (read: expensive)
Perhaps my face isn't as sensitive as Homer's, as I don't have issue with the harshness of a DE shavette, and my experience pales next to most on this forum: I found the 10k worked out well.
I'm hoping that I won't get the itch to try something new (read: expensive)
Though I suspect that my skin is not irritated easily. I have always found that I can take an edge from harsh to smooth with just a dozen finessed laps on leather followed by normal stropping.
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Synthetic edges tend to punish past irritation a lot more than most naturals. Even if your skin doesn't look irritated, it could have some microscopic bumps and tears from previous shaves. Convexed edges and particularly smoothly-cut bevel character (like coticules leave) will skip over most of this, whereas a very sharp synthetic edge will do what a synthetic edge is designed to do, cut anything and everything in its path. It's not "too sharp", it's not "too dull" or strictly "harsh", it's not a "foil edge" or "overhoned", it's not even that the additional strength from a convex or compound bevel is necessary or even beneficial on all razors. It's just that the edge a synth leaves cuts skin that projects into its path (moles, goosebumps, poor stretching, and yes, residual imperfections from past irritation) without any hesitation. If you use a low enough angle, don't irritate your skin to begin with, don't slip up with proper skin stretching, etc; a synth edge shaves plenty smooth. But few if any shavers can maintain this day in and day out. Several shavers I've seen who use synthetic edges regularly fall into the habit of skipping a day here and there to reset their face and prevent the cascading irritation. Others dull their edges in various ways to try and emulate the nature of natural edges; though the efficacy of this is questionable (see the film vs Jnat test) because dulling a synth edge doesn't give you the same edge character as a maxed out natural edge does. Neither is the character binary. A lot of naturals cut more like synthetics than others, while some synthetics are designed to behave more like naturals.
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- #15
The part about indiscriminate cutting is what rings a bell the loudest. Our faces are not mirrors and have contours and blemishes that area big part of the problem.
So what if a guy were to make an 8K edge, then 10K with tape? That double-bevel may come closer to approximating the convex edge of a natural stone with slurry. Just considering it from the POV of a person who might have all the synths and could try it to see if that helps tame the shave a bit. Go a little crazier? 4K, 8K with one piece, 10k with two pieces?
Would be interesting. I don't have the stones (if you will excuse the pun) to try it.
Would be interesting. I don't have the stones (if you will excuse the pun) to try it.
I don't think slurry convexes the edges from what I've seen. It affects the edge, but I don't think convexing is the correct geometrical description of it.
When I don't have time or inclination to hone, I use diamond spray on leather for finishing and touch-up. So I will shave every morning, 7 days a week for a month or more with razors honed on 16k or 20k synthetics and finished with diamond spray with no skin irritation.
On weekends at the cottage I use a DE two days in a row and I have skin irritation. I would classify both of these as "synthetic" edges.
I honed a GD on my Jnat earlier this week, targeting (and hitting) the keen edge I prefer and the shave was harsher than my usual diamond spray edge. (Closeness was comparable).
Maybe my natural and synthetic edges are just not "typical".....
On weekends at the cottage I use a DE two days in a row and I have skin irritation. I would classify both of these as "synthetic" edges.
I honed a GD on my Jnat earlier this week, targeting (and hitting) the keen edge I prefer and the shave was harsher than my usual diamond spray edge. (Closeness was comparable).
Maybe my natural and synthetic edges are just not "typical".....
I mostly agree, there's some very slight convexing perhaps, but I see no evidence that it is anything more than a minute part of the explanation for the differences. Much more telling are the SEM scope pics of natural vs synthetic edges, where the actual geography of the edge and the bevel near the edge reveals massive differences between a synthetic and, for instance, a coticule.
Honer:
DE's force you out of an ideal (minimal) angle for shaving, because the razors have a top which gets in the way. If you try to shave flush with a DE, you wind up with the blade hovering over your skin doing nothing. When I tilt a DE down until the blade contacts my skin, I always know the shave will suck because the angle is so high, that even if the blade were ridiculously sharp (and they aren't), the angle means I'm scraping as much as I'm cutting.
Here's a rough image of the minimum angle which even puts the blade in contact with the skin on a DE I grabbed off my desk. A rough eyeballing says that's a 26.5 degree angle. Let's call it 25. That's ridiculous. I'd never shave anywhere NEAR that with a sharp blade. If I did it'd be irritating as HELL. If I shaved ATG at that with a dull blade, again, irritating as hell. Now obviously DE's will vary, and I wouldn't be surprised if some models let you get as low as 15* there, but that's still well beyond where I comfortably shave with a sharp straight razor. That's why I don't use DE's.
Honer:
DE's force you out of an ideal (minimal) angle for shaving, because the razors have a top which gets in the way. If you try to shave flush with a DE, you wind up with the blade hovering over your skin doing nothing. When I tilt a DE down until the blade contacts my skin, I always know the shave will suck because the angle is so high, that even if the blade were ridiculously sharp (and they aren't), the angle means I'm scraping as much as I'm cutting.
Here's a rough image of the minimum angle which even puts the blade in contact with the skin on a DE I grabbed off my desk. A rough eyeballing says that's a 26.5 degree angle. Let's call it 25. That's ridiculous. I'd never shave anywhere NEAR that with a sharp blade. If I did it'd be irritating as HELL. If I shaved ATG at that with a dull blade, again, irritating as hell. Now obviously DE's will vary, and I wouldn't be surprised if some models let you get as low as 15* there, but that's still well beyond where I comfortably shave with a sharp straight razor. That's why I don't use DE's.
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Most of the guys that use synths, I notised nearly all of them finish with crox to just smooth the edge.
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