+1. Any day of the week. I actually gave out some shave ready gds last time to noobs. Maybe the tide is turning....Doubt it.
Some JNat Feedback Requested Please
- Thread starter LBussy
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- #102
Got it ... not a barrier, a plateau.You're not having issues.
You're learning.
Issues are what happen if you stop learning.
Frank if I had a Fili I'd still show up with a GD on a JNat. Maybe someone can tape the expressions.
Well, when I get let's say 5 years experience maybe I can say I've done it for four without dinging the stabilizer. For now I'm a toddler learning to walk.
Okay I keep hearing that and I sat here at the table staring at the stone and the razor and I eventually figured out why it's not making sense to me. Check out this fine artwork:
With the top blade with the blade perpendicular to the hone, if I lift the toe slightly to get the heel down the edge angle is indeed held stable by the spine. If this is a 5/8" blade with a 3/16" spine, the bevel angle or at least the angle of attack is ~17 degrees. On the bottom example with an aggressive heel leading stroke AND a lifted toe the effective blade width now becomes that of the red line or twice the real width. The angle at which I am honing now becomes ~8 degrees. This is why it keeps seeming wrong to me.
Am I way off on a tangent (if you will excuse the pun) here?
1. ease off on the aggressiveness of the heel leading. You want just enough to angle the stabilizer off the hine .
2. Rolling strokes are more about slightly varying the pressure you are putting in the blade. Unless you have a blade with a huge smile, you don't necessarily see the heel or toe lift off the hone.
3. If your rolling strokes are x-strokes, this only matters for the start of the stroke and the theoretical small change in bevel angle won't be noticeable.
2. Rolling strokes are more about slightly varying the pressure you are putting in the blade. Unless you have a blade with a huge smile, you don't necessarily see the heel or toe lift off the hone.
3. If your rolling strokes are x-strokes, this only matters for the start of the stroke and the theoretical small change in bevel angle won't be noticeable.
You seem to be over-thinking this. I think gamma would say something along the lines of stop thinking and start honing.
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- #106
Over-studying for the test is what I do best!
I'm just the kinda guy that likes to know "why" so it sticks easier. Otherwise it just feels like I'm doing it till I get it right and then I hope I remember how I did it.
^this
Although, you can still do rolling strokes with that angle. Just takes some finessing - practice. Esp the reverse strokes that start with the toe on the heel off.
Figuring things out is fine. Most is this gets figured out by doing it though. Pix, SEMs, drawings, etc - all good.
Hands-on investigation gets it done.
Put the blade on the stone and just do it. You might screw-up the exisiting bevel, fine, who cares? Gotta learn.
Seeing it work in/with your hands is worth 10 bizillion 400x light field microscope pix and 10 quadrillion clip-art drawings.
I did like the drawing though.
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I had my Gold Dollar and a Double Arrow, which is a GD with a different name, at the Denver meet-up which was an SRP event. Another one of the SRP guys had three GDs. I made the statement that the GDs were obviously cheap and had their problems, but that they hold a killer edge. No one contested me. I PIFed my GD to a new shaver at that meet, but I will be bringing my Double Arrow to the Kansas City meet-up. I don't expect any drama.
What? No. This would only be the case if you were grinding an edge perpendicular to the red line in your image. The blue line in this image. The geometry of the razor is determined by the angle the spine makes to the edge. The direction you hone it in doesn't affect this. Yes, if you lift the toe and grind away the edge at the heel, eventually an edge will form at the blue line, and that will have the grind angle that you calculate, but there is no reason you would ever lift your toe in this circumstance, as that's ALL it would do for you, and that's obviously not desirable. In fact if you lift your toe in the image you've shown. You'll quite literally be freehand grinding a new edge along that blue line as your spine will immediately come completely off the hone at that angle.
To do what you seem to be describing. (hone the edge at an angle determined from it's distance from a single point on the spine, near the toe) You would have to keep that point stationary (hold the razor down at the black dot in the bottom image) and ROTATE the razor on the CORNER of the hone, as using the face of the hone will force the razor level (they're engineered as such) and prevent you from changing the angle. As the hone's corner wore wider and wider, this would eventually cease to be effective.
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Well, the internet has proven time and time again that it's easier to be an unpleasant person here than in person.
+1 and time to move forward without further mention of said other place on my part. It isn't worth the energy and I apologize for referencing the place.
Frank
Back to honing.
Good job explaining that heel leading stroke, Ian.
In any case, if I were using a heal leading stroke I would rotate the razor shown counterclockwise as far as the stabilizer would allow in order to spread the hone wear on the spine as evenly as possible.
Speaking of stabilizers and shoulders, does anyone else think they inhibit stropping? I've had some that marked up the edge of my strop if I wasn't careful.
Good job explaining that heel leading stroke, Ian.
In any case, if I were using a heal leading stroke I would rotate the razor shown counterclockwise as far as the stabilizer would allow in order to spread the hone wear on the spine as evenly as possible.
Speaking of stabilizers and shoulders, does anyone else think they inhibit stropping? I've had some that marked up the edge of my strop if I wasn't careful.
- Thread starter
- #113
Thanks Ian - that makes sense. What doesn't yet make sense for me yet is if everything is maintained at that "perfect angle", how coming at it with a different angle of attack is going to allow honing the part that doesn't touch when the razor is perpendicular to the stone and angle of attack. I do see where a narrow hone would allow it however.
If the edge at the toe and heel is not touching that means that it's probably ever so slightly narrower there and so when it does take an edge it will be slightly more acute (which I understand is not enough to make it an issue) but then I guess I still can't wrap my head around how I (correctly) get the heel and toe sharp if the toe or heel does not raise at all.
Guys I am sorry I'm being so dense. When I get this though .... it will be stuck like glue.
If the edge at the toe and heel is not touching that means that it's probably ever so slightly narrower there and so when it does take an edge it will be slightly more acute (which I understand is not enough to make it an issue) but then I guess I still can't wrap my head around how I (correctly) get the heel and toe sharp if the toe or heel does not raise at all.
Guys I am sorry I'm being so dense. When I get this though .... it will be stuck like glue.
Look here.
http://www.coticule.be/strokes.html
The third graphic is the one you need. Keep in mind, you don't need anywhere near as much lift of the toe or heel as it shows, but it will give you the idea. Do this with the blade angled slightly so that the heel leads, this allows the stabilizer to be off the edge of the hone.
http://www.coticule.be/strokes.html
The third graphic is the one you need. Keep in mind, you don't need anywhere near as much lift of the toe or heel as it shows, but it will give you the idea. Do this with the blade angled slightly so that the heel leads, this allows the stabilizer to be off the edge of the hone.
- Thread starter
- #115
Thank you Chaloney ... that's what I was doing with sort of a combination of the rolling and the swaying I guess. I'm going to have to remember those pics are there for when I need to describe this again (to the next guy as dense as me).
Thanks again!
Thanks again!
Here you're right. Heel leading exclusively will prevent the spine that is off the stone from wearing. Generally we use far less severe tilts than in your image, so you're talking a few mm of spine length not wearing. You can either wear it down to match (simply putting it on the hone a time or two every honing is usually sufficient), or just decide you're going to keep it off the hone forever, and effectively determine your razor to have a shorter spine than edge, the very heel of the spine which you will treat as part of the tang and keep off the stone.
And your second thought also bears mention. Sweeping or arcing strokes will only affect the angle through wear (they will generally wear faster, if they aren't already worn more), assuming they're executed as I always do, which is tilting on the razors axis (perpendicular to spine), tilting on any other angle where the toe and spine are not equidistant (to each other) from the stone at all points along its length will essentially force you into freehand honing your razor. The arrangement of the stone doesn't affect your honing, it only determines where your honing surface is. So long as the plane of the hone maintains angle with both the spine and edge of the razor, your geometry will be unaffected (assuming pressure, time, etc are constant).
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- Thread starter
- #117
During the honing session today I concentrated on rocking. It was more a "picture a blade rocking while holding it flat" exercise but it worked. I did two DMT slurry, two tomo, and a shave test.I have a 3/4 DFS ... damnedest thing. Somehow my right cheek is not smooth. I thought originally it was the blade but then anything I shaved with that side would have been bad so it was just a bad shave.
I think I get the idea now, just need a lot more practice.
I think I get the idea now, just need a lot more practice.
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- #119
No honing today but I have an excuse!@ Sealed the stone; sides and back with some clear nail polish. It really made the Kawa pop. I wish I was a better photographer but here it is out in the sunlight (pay no attention to the deck I need to sand and seal):
I decided the "617" was part of the provenance of the stone, at least the part where it came to this country and became mine. So, I sealed right over it.
I decided the "617" was part of the provenance of the stone, at least the part where it came to this country and became mine. So, I sealed right over it.
Lee old boy, you are in deep!
Good for you, nice stone.
Frank
Good for you, nice stone.
Frank
