Ok, putting all the mystic mambo jumbo zen aside... In a blind shave test: Would a shaver that's not a newbie be able to tell the difference between the 3? That is of coarse holding all else equal. This goes out to especially all you fanatics that experienced at least 2 of the 3, ideally 3 of 3.
Film vs. natural vs. synthetic
- Thread starter eynlai
- Start date
A sharp, smooth, honed edge is exactly that, regardless of what type surface it was honed. However, the skill of the user, not so much perhaps. Probably one could tell a difference between a Honemiester's razor on stone vs a wannabe like myself with film?
Can't speak for film, and there are a few stones that produce very synth like finishes. But the majority of hones we use (coticule, Thuri, most Jnats, arks, etc) are pretty easy to tell from synths in general. Assuming there's no damage to the edge complicating the issue.
I wonder if an expert shaver could pick out or name each type of edge in a blind test too. I think one might be able to pick out his or her own edge, or favorite edge prepared by another, after shaving with all three. But to pick out one of three razors, shave with it (without seeing the bevel), and say, "Aha! that's the synth!" vs "that's the film!" That would be a neat trick. Even better trick to call the razor/hone without comparing it to shaves from the other two.
On the other hand, there was a time when I thought all this stuff, "tasted like chicken." It doesn't any longer . . . .
On the other hand, there was a time when I thought all this stuff, "tasted like chicken." It doesn't any longer . . . .
We'll see if Seraphim and Doc agree, yet.
I can tell the difference between when I fully hone on synthetics or finish on natural stones (coticule / frankonian). Now is that because I know what they were honed on or because I can really tell the difference? Hmmmmmm, not so sure.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
I think yes if you know what you're looking for, but the difference may be insignificant to a new straight user that has never experienced both. It would be easy to settle in with a good edge from any you mentioned and shave with them from now on. But if you've experienced a good "butter knife" edge from a natural, it stands out. Your own personal beard and skin may make the differences seem larger or smaller.
Cheers, Steve
Cheers, Steve
I can usually tell a synthetic (or the saran wrap) from a coti or JNAT. I haven't shaved with others too often so I can't comment.
For me a synthetic edge always feels like it will cut you, some might call it harsh, while a nice natural feels more forgiving.
The one exception, and probably the best synthetic edge I have tried was the Suehiro Kokumyo, that was very nice. I had one and sold it, just did not love honing on it.[FONT=arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
For me a synthetic edge always feels like it will cut you, some might call it harsh, while a nice natural feels more forgiving.
The one exception, and probably the best synthetic edge I have tried was the Suehiro Kokumyo, that was very nice. I had one and sold it, just did not love honing on it.[FONT=arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
I am firmly in the natural stone camp but don't believe for a minute that I could reliably and regularly distinguish between the different sort of edges. There are too many variables. Even the most consistent product available, film, will yield up different shaving experiences based on steel type, blade weight and shape, type of soap, quality of lather, state of the shaver's skill and the shaver's style. There are just too many variables to reliably test the hypothesis. Stated another way, I don't believe we can use the scientific method (easily at any rate) to answer your question.
On the other hand, scientific knowledge isn't the only sort of knowledge. There's practical knowledge as well. In one of my favorite series of books, one of the main characters, a naval surgeon, asks his best friend, the ship's captain "Have you ever known the opinion of the lower decks to be wrong?" This was in regard to their opinion of another officer. What's interesting about the assertion is that the lower decks are made up of men who are largely unlettered, provincial, violent and, in many cases, murderers, thieves, rapists, drunks and madmen. Their opinion on matters of state, taste, history, manners and anything unrelated to the sailing and fighting of a naval vessel is not to be trusted, but on all matters related to life on Her Majesty's ship, as a community they have understanding both deep and wide.
And so it is here. We can not prove to anyone that there are identifiable differences between the different sorts of edges in a way that would ever put an end to the discussion. As a community of people, however, who spend a LOT of time honing and using razors and stones (and Film) from all over the world, a general agreement has surfaced about the traits of various honing materials compared to one another and for the purposes of getting things done day to day, we all agree that it's mostly true and the most experienced of us, with razors they use regularly, could probably identify, most of the time, what sort of edge they were getting if it were presented as one of two choices.
This is a very long, circuitous way of answering you with the word "Probably".
On the other hand, scientific knowledge isn't the only sort of knowledge. There's practical knowledge as well. In one of my favorite series of books, one of the main characters, a naval surgeon, asks his best friend, the ship's captain "Have you ever known the opinion of the lower decks to be wrong?" This was in regard to their opinion of another officer. What's interesting about the assertion is that the lower decks are made up of men who are largely unlettered, provincial, violent and, in many cases, murderers, thieves, rapists, drunks and madmen. Their opinion on matters of state, taste, history, manners and anything unrelated to the sailing and fighting of a naval vessel is not to be trusted, but on all matters related to life on Her Majesty's ship, as a community they have understanding both deep and wide.
And so it is here. We can not prove to anyone that there are identifiable differences between the different sorts of edges in a way that would ever put an end to the discussion. As a community of people, however, who spend a LOT of time honing and using razors and stones (and Film) from all over the world, a general agreement has surfaced about the traits of various honing materials compared to one another and for the purposes of getting things done day to day, we all agree that it's mostly true and the most experienced of us, with razors they use regularly, could probably identify, most of the time, what sort of edge they were getting if it were presented as one of two choices.
This is a very long, circuitous way of answering you with the word "Probably".
Mark - great post, you really struck the nail on the head.
I agree with Bill here, especially if the natural edge is off a coti or an Ark. It's been said that an Ark edge is intelligent, and I totally get this now that I've been using one for a couple months. It's like it knows the difference between skin and whiskers. A coti edge is similar. I don't think I could tell you, "that's a film edge, and that's synthetic" but I'm pretty sure I could easily pick out a well done natural edge.
Thanks for the kind words Andrew. It took me rather a long way to get to the nail and then find the hammer, but with patience...
I think the most common complaints in regards to film edges are due to two factors:
With film it is easy to "go too far" in over refining the edge. 0.3um, 0.1um films are available, and shaving off of those edges is often uncomfortable.
Stopping the progression at 1um or 3um leaves a much more neutral feeling edge.
The other factor is that if one does choose to go "uber sharp" with the film, using a shaving technique that you normally use with your less refined natural hones may not work out so well. I have found that extremely refined edges require the razor to be just about flat on your face for best results.
A less refined edge allows you to use a wider range of razor angles, also a wider range of pressure.
So: telling a natural honed edge from an ultra refined film edge? Sure, no problem.
A natural edge from a 3 or 1um film edge? I don't know about that.
With film it is easy to "go too far" in over refining the edge. 0.3um, 0.1um films are available, and shaving off of those edges is often uncomfortable.
Stopping the progression at 1um or 3um leaves a much more neutral feeling edge.
The other factor is that if one does choose to go "uber sharp" with the film, using a shaving technique that you normally use with your less refined natural hones may not work out so well. I have found that extremely refined edges require the razor to be just about flat on your face for best results.
A less refined edge allows you to use a wider range of razor angles, also a wider range of pressure.
So: telling a natural honed edge from an ultra refined film edge? Sure, no problem.
A natural edge from a 3 or 1um film edge? I don't know about that.
Probably, but perhaps not.
The equation contains more than 3 variables, and keeping 'all else equal' is probably impossible.
The equation contains more than 3 variables, and keeping 'all else equal' is probably impossible.
I think that whatever method you use needs to be tweeked to your taste. Ive honed many more blades on Jnats than film. So I suppose enough experimentation on any method will lead you to a better place. And the truth is any method can produce a harsh edge. DOesnt matter what you use. Your technique in dialing an edge into your own zone is what we do as honers. Whats harsh or smooth to me is well, harsh or smooth to me! Other people may find the edge different. I strive for and get an edge that I can do if I want to, 5 passes without irritation. Thats what I want out of my edges. Others have their own yardstick to measure their edge by.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #18
exactly equal... Maybe not. But close. Let us say you were given 3 brand new Dovo Best 5/8s. Same round point. Same scales. Came from the same distributor. Heck... All 3 made by the same worker at Dovo from the same batch of steel. You, trying to keep your techniques even, hone each Best on different material. Each passing the HHT 4, let's say. Then you gave... Say... Mark, all 3 to shave with in a single same session. Such as each time he rinse or wipe lather, he puts that one down and pick up another from the batch of 3 to continue shaving... And so on. Think he will be able to tell which ones came off of which hone or film? Thus far, we've equalized make, model, material, craft person, skill of honer, skill of shaver, even kept it within the same shave session. Equal enough, wouldn't we agree?
Last edited:
No agreement on the 'keeping things equal' concept. Things are either equal or they are not.
Subtle variations account for most of what people believe to be what we're talking about, and I see too many variables present to say that things are going to be equal. 'Equal enough' compares to being a little pregnant.
Not that it matters - I believe some may know what's up and others will not.
I also believe that some will think they know when they don't; guessing and getting the answer correct doesn't count in my world.
Subtle variations account for most of what people believe to be what we're talking about, and I see too many variables present to say that things are going to be equal. 'Equal enough' compares to being a little pregnant.
Not that it matters - I believe some may know what's up and others will not.
I also believe that some will think they know when they don't; guessing and getting the answer correct doesn't count in my world.
There would be different feels from the various abrasives. Definitely for better or worse. You may like all 3 but they would be different.
