My thoughts on why some brushes may shed.

Great post Joe, thanks for all the work. Makes sense that bubbles are part of the problem with shedding. It never occurred to me that hot tap water might cause problems with epoxy but I'll make sure to avoid soaking the knot of my Parker!

Thanks again!

+ 1,000

Joe, many thanks.

turtle said:

Where but on B&B would you find someone who would go to such depths to investigate an occurrence that most think of with little more thought than..... "well it happens sometimes"

Good work and a nice well presented argument to back up what I have always tried to tell folks, if it is too hot to stick your hands in for a few minutes it is too hot for your brush.

I've never used anything stronger than a mild dish soap (1-2 drops in the palm of my hand then palm lathering) to clean a brush, followed up with a good lathering with the MWF

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Joe this is a why you are a great brush maker. It's all in the details

Thank you for putting the work into producing this post Joe! I will definitely be more careful when cleaning my brush.

Very in-depth theory. Nice work!

Excellent post!
Maybe the good Dr Joe can opine on this one I've unknowingly become a paid beta tester for Rooney's current heritage line of Stubby 2's. I purchased one from a vendor and had to return it due to excessive shedding (5-20 hairs per shave over a few weeks). Got a refund and went to another vendor to get one and it turned out to also have the same issue. Exchanged that one for another, and guess what, another shedder.
A few notes about how I use the brush:
1) Mostly face lathering but occasional bowl lathering
2) I do not soak these before loading, i just give them a rinse
3) Have not been using any hot water
4) After use, I squeeze the knot to release the remaining lather and give it a thorough rinse. Then i give it a few good shakes to get out the excess water
5) I do not have a brush stand that fits this type of chubby handle, so i let it dry upright
6) I do not have any breaking in or cleaning routine...i just use it out of the box

These are big dense knots, but not as dense as D01s or Simpsons's chubbies. Any other ideas on why brushes may shed? Or perhaps this is just a cruel joke on me?

shevek said:

Excellent post!
Maybe the good Dr Joe can opine on this one I've unknowingly become a paid beta tester for Rooney's current heritage line of Stubby 2's. I purchased one from a vendor and had to return it due to excessive shedding (5-20 hairs per shave over a few weeks). Got a refund and went to another vendor to get one and it turned out to also have the same issue. Exchanged that one for another, and guess what, another shedder.
A few notes about how I use the brush:
1) Mostly face lathering but occasional bowl lathering
2) I do not soak these before loading, i just give them a rinse
3) Have not been using any hot water
4) After use, I squeeze the knot to release the remaining lather and give it a thorough rinse. Then i give it a few good shakes to get out the excess water
5) I do not have a brush stand that fits this type of chubby handle, so i let it dry upright
6) I do not have any breaking in or cleaning routine...i just use it out of the box

These are big dense knots, but not as dense as D01s or Simpsons's chubbies. Any other ideas on why brushes may shed? Or perhaps this is just a cruel joke on me?

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First off, sorry to hear about your troubles with the Rooney brushes. This is one main stream brush maker I have never had the pleasure of owning or using.

A couple of thoughts/questions come to mind-

1. Before you start using the brush, do you comb it out at all? I read bullet point 6 but still wanted to ask this question.
2. Was each brush shedding the same amount as in your post- 5-20 hairs per shave for weeks? If so, that would certainly be considered excessive by most, regardless of the knot density.
3. How long do you rinse the brush before using? I'm very curious about this and here is why. I have 3 Simpson brushes I use regularly- a Case, Berkley, and a Duke 1. I almost always soak my brushes before use while I shower, but on rare occasion, I simply rinse under running water before I start loading the brush. What I have noticed consistently with my Simpson brushes is if I soak the brush prior to use, none of them ever shed. However, if I simply run them under water before using them and then load the brush they way I normally would, each brush yields a hair or two. I have come to the conclusion these particular brushes behave better when soaked for a few minutes, like a boar brush, as they appear to tolerate the rotational forces suffered during the soap loading process better if soaked rather than just rinsed prior to use. My Thaters and Savile Row behave the same, though the Savile Row has such an exaggerated bulb shape only about 20% of the actual knot contacts the soap puck unless I provide a little extra encouragement

Again, these are just some thoughts. Interesting this would happen with three consecutive brushes.

And I hope I haven't come across as a "know it all" about brush shedding with this particular post, I simply wanted to share some observations I have made over the past few years in using and making brushes.

Very informative Joe.

shaverjoe said:

And I hope I haven't come across as a "know it all" about brush shedding with this particular post, I simply wanted to share some observations I have made over the past few years in using and making brushes.

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You may not be a "know it all", but you certainly know a lot! Your observations are appreciated, and I figured since you are zeroed in on the topic, it would be a good time to bring up my issue. To answer your questions....
1. I typically do not comb out my brushes. However, I did try this with brush 1 and 2 after the shedding got heavy. I remember about 75 coming out of my second one, but the shedding still continued for another 2 weeks. Then I gave up....I waited for the brush to be fully dry, used a wide tooth comb and did not go too deep or use too much force.
2. Yep, 5-20 on all 3. When I received my current one it did not shed for the first 14 uses. Then it shed 1, 8, 6, 10, 14, 19 (today).
3. I used to soak my brushes until I read a thread where a bunch of people said it wasn't necessary... So I tried just a rinse and have not had any issues with my other brushes....only the Stubby 2s. BTW I have 2 other Rooney's that are fantastic and I treat them exactly as I do this one. When I do a rinse, I usually just get it wet, shake off the excess and sit it on the counter for a minute while I get my other stuff layer out. Figure that should give it time to absorb the water a bit. I'll try going back to soaking tomorrow morning. I'll try anything!

Joe, just a curiosity - did you run a similar test on the epoxy with an alkaline (basic) solution, like soap water?

How does it behave then?

Joe,

A great post and thank you for your work on this. This is up there with some of the best informational posts ever on B&B.

All materials are prone to deterioration through thermal cycling. I did some quick googling on "thermal cycling epoxies" this morning and, sure enough, epoxies are notoriously prone to this and there is a vast array of specially formulated ones to resist it. So, it's not just the heat, it's the heat and then cooling and then that process repeated over and over.

One of the answers to the shedding problem might be using temperature and chemically resistant epoxies. That would be a good bit more expensive and, given the infrequency of real knot failure, maybe not worth the expense.

The other possible reason for full knot failure (you got me thinking) is a difference, again over repeated cycles of heating and cooling, of the expansion between the knot and the horn. Even a small difference, repeated over time, could cause this. I've seen many videos of people who submerge their entire brush in hot water, not just the knot, and in these circumstances, the differential expansion would almost certainly happen.

Again, thank you for your work on this.

Guru17 said:

Joe, just a curiosity - did you run a similar test on the epoxy with an alkaline (basic) solution, like soap water?

How does it behave then?

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I haven't, but over the next couple of weeks, I'll try to do this, though this one will be harder to standardize. I'll be specific in the post in regards to which soap I use and what ratio of soap to water is used. I usually use Method brand dish soap to clean my brushes, along with a vinegar soak.

Great post, Joe. Can't help but learn stuff here sometimes. Thanks for adding this to the "knowledge base."

Sticky-fy and Wiki-fy this excellent post!

Very informative! This may explain why I've been having a little shedding problem recently.

Thank you!

Great details and information.
Thank you.
Myron

I wonder if these bubbles actually have sharp edges to them and slowly abrade/saw at the hair till it falls out?

shaverjoe said:

How long do you rinse the brush before using? I'm very curious about this and here is why. I have 3 Simpson brushes I use regularly- a Case, Berkley, and a Duke 1. I almost always soak my brushes before use while I shower, but on rare occasion, I simply rinse under running water before I start loading the brush. What I have noticed consistently with my Simpson brushes is if I soak the brush prior to use, none of them ever shed. However, if I simply run them under water before using them and then load the brush they way I normally would, each brush yields a hair or two. I have come to the conclusion these particular brushes behave better when soaked for a few minutes, like a boar brush, as they appear to tolerate the rotational forces suffered during the soap loading process better if soaked rather than just rinsed prior to use.

Again, these are just some thoughts. Interesting this would happen with three consecutive brushes.

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Joe; RE: Simpson knot glue: In ShaveWiki under "Prevulfix Lore" they refer to pearl barley syrup and lead you to a thread about the recipe and drying time. There also is a Youtube video showing how they use it, apparently they don't use epoxy.
Also, for a real treat, take a look at shaverjoe's gallery for some pics of awesome brushes!

Thx for the research and well written post.

Very well done! Thanks for informing us.