Horror Pictures (Picture Heavy)

I'm relatively new to straights, and my trip has not been smooth if you will excuse the pun. I picked up a GD 208 from buca3152 as my first straight, another couple of vintage straights form Lakebound, and a CJB handle loaned to me by LadyKate. I have not yet learned to be a good, consistent straight shaver, but I have definitely learned a lot.

First, as has been discussed in who knows how many threads, the angle makes a huge difference. I know I titled this "Horror Pictures" but I'm getting to that. I got maybe three good shaves out of the GD 208. And let me get this out there: that in no way has any negative connotations to buca and his straights. This was ALL ME. He also offered to touch it up for postage which was more than he had to do. I digress but I want to make sure nobody gets the intent wrong here.

I got to a point where none of the three straights I had were shaving well, and this happened quickly. LadyKate offered to show me some honing tips which I appreciate very much. We were standing in a field on a hot summer day working from a tailgate so to say that it was less than optimal is an understatement. We were there to do something else so any time I got from him (yes, LadyKate is a "him") took away from other things. I still learned a lot, mostly to trust my fingertips when testing an edge. That was a good start.

Still, things were not going as planned. I had films and had not mastered the touch so I was getting questionable results. I think I was close on bevel but not so close on edge. Lakebound offered to touch up some razors as he had some recent progress with his work so I was very happy to take him up on his offer. He sent me some pics of the edge I sent him and the edge he sent back and the results were shocking. I don't have those on this computer so maybe he'll read this and add them. The upshot is this: What I was doing was not giving me what could be called an edge. He sent them back and I went back to basics.

Figuring I had likewise done a poor job on the GD I went back at it. The prep work buca did was more than fine (let's remember these are $3 razors!) but I was not able to get a good bevel going because of the stabilizers. A real heel-first method is something that's too complicated for me. So, out to the garage and dust off the Dremel. I took to a razor - something which goes against my face - with the only stone I could find while standing on the step leading to my garage because I was too lazy to go find an extension cord, the right stone, and a place to work. How could that NOT go well?! Well, I did reduce the stabilizer some, enough for me to lay the blade perpendicular to the hone and get to work. I also "barked" the face of the hollow so it's REAL ugly.

I'll call that a lesson learned.

So now I have to go to work on this bevel. I basically made it into a different razor so the bevel was not right (because of my work, not buca's). It took me about an hour on a well-worn DMT to get it where I think it was right. I'm sure someone who knows what they are doing could have made a razor in less time. I think the bevel was right but next time I'm going to use doc's cherry tomato test. After that I think things went wrong. I believe I used too much pressure because I ended up with what I thought at the time was a very fragile edge. I also think my stropping was WAY too hard. I could see through my very cheap 10x loupe that I had some chips. Well .. let me tell you THAT was the understatement of the year. doc offered to have a look and let's just say it was embarrassing but enlightening. Here's the pics.




More in next post.

As if those were not horrifying enough, he included a high power shot:



You can see I got a halfway decent "polish" from the films, but my edge was ... gone.

Needless to say this was a very VERY uncomfortable shave. I'l include a couple pics of what he did with the edge in the next post.

Here's the results after doc did "a mini breadknife and started on the chosera, shapton 4/8k, finished on Nakayama Asagi."




And the requisite high power shot:



I am very excited to try this edge out.

So first of all does my hypothesis hold water? If I know for a fact I used too much pressure, does that seem a good reason why the edge was foiled and subsequently broke?

Lee has asked me for some photos that I took of the before and after of two razors that he sent to me for honing. Keep in mind that I do not claim to be an advanced level honer.

Henry Sears & Son 9/16

Before:



After:



Rangoon 5/8

Before:



After:



The Rangoon was actually taped and I went back down to bevel set for Lee using Naniwa SS 1K through 5K, 8K and then finished on the JNAT followed by 100+ on clean leather and a shave test.

Nice thread topic Lee, hope these pictures help with your discussion.

Frank

I'm wondering how the horror picture edges looked at 10x and how they relate to Alum's thread.http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/410783-Micro-Chipping-and-Magnification. Did you by chance look at them with a low power loupe before sending them off?

bluesman 7 said:

I'm wondering how the horror picture edges looked at 10x and how they relate to Alum's thread.http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/410783-Micro-Chipping-and-Magnification. Did you by chance look at them with a low power loupe before sending them off?

Click to expand...

Yes sir I did - on a 10x (which is a cheap knock-off so who knows the power) I saw what I described as "micro-chipping." The pics that Lakebound posted were of that group of "issues." He fixed two of them and I tried to fix the GD with the result that you see in doc's pics. I looked at those in the same loupe and thought the edges were "wiry" but I suppose that was an understatement.

So does anyone care to take on my belief that it's too much pressure (and guys, I'm embarrassed to say how much pressure I used) coupled with too vigorous stropping? The theory being the pressure allowed the edge to "bend" which caused a general thinning of the edge, then the stropping caused that thin edge to break off.

I've also learned that either my eyes are not good enough with a 10x loupe or the $3 loupe is not really 10x. Probably both.

Yes, I think a weak foil edge is created with to much pressure because the thin edge deflects and allows material to be removed directly behind the edge resulting in the foil edge. Then the foil rips free in places upon stropping. Not that the foil edge would ever be comfortable anyway.

I have cheap loupes also and though they are marked as 10x they seem much lower going by the width of the bevel. It is telling though that you could see micro-chipping at that magnification.

You're shaving with too steep of an angle.

This is beats edges up worse than most anything else. Because you're scraping, not shaving

Seraphim said:

You're shaving with too steep of an angle.

This is beats edges up worse than most anything else. Because you're scraping, not shaving

Click to expand...

Definitely a consideration, and I have improved that. What you are looking at there however is about a 2" pass and then setting it aside. I never had a chance to mess that one up. That's all film and stropping.

Now the chipping on the HS and the Rangoon in the other pics, that's all skill (or lack thereof) in picking a shaving angle.

Must be a massive foil edge. This is why finishing with the wet picopaper is so important.

LBussy said:

Definitely a consideration, and I have improved that. What you are looking at there however is about a 2" pass and then setting it aside. I never had a chance to mess that one up. That's all film and stropping.

Now the chipping on the HS and the Rangoon in the other pics, that's all skill (or lack thereof) in picking a shaving angle.

Click to expand...

Then I would concur with your assessment regarding pressure.

Frank

Nice thread Lee.

I saw saw the chips with my loupe (a cheap 30/60x) from amazon. The bevel also looked wavy to me, what I was seeing was the peaks and valleys of the broken off area.

I do think this is most likey a big foil edge created on the lower grit stones (film) by using too much pressure. DMT for bevel setting are great but they cut fast, even worn ones, if too much pressure is used then the flexion of the edge back and forth make for a fragile edge.

I am am not a weight of blade honer, more like erasing paper with an eraser tipped pencil.

For or the final laps on the finish I do use as light pressure as possible and still maintain contact.

2"?

how long do you think it would take to snap off a razors edge? 2" of incorrect stroke may be all it takes?

Or perhaps you simply need a JNat finished edge. That usually solves most problems.

I think pressure is my problem, too. Next thing I'm gonna try is holding it by the far end of the scales so that literally only the weight of the blade and scales is on the blade.
That's how desperate I am to figure this out.

Doc226 said:

Nice thread Lee.

I saw saw the chips with my loupe (a cheap 30/60x) from amazon. The bevel also looked wavy to me, what I was seeing was the peaks and valleys of the broken off area.

I do think this is most likey a big foil edge created on the lower grit stones (film) by using too much pressure. DMT for bevel setting are great but they cut fast, even worn ones, if too much pressure is used then the flexion of the edge back and forth make for a fragile edge.

I am am not a weight of blade honer, more like erasing paper with an eraser tipped pencil.

For or the final laps on the finish I do use as light pressure as possible and still maintain contact.

Click to expand...

I can see where adherence to the "weight of blade" principal could be very good for the end product, not so much for the time it takes to create it.

I recall vividly trying to rush through the progression when I finally got the edge set. I should have set it aside, had a frosty beverage (it was July 4th) and just finished another day. I know I pushed too much, I even rubbed a bare spot in one film. Yes, horrible. I know.

Many times a guy does something, takes a shortcut, because he thinks nobody is looking. Well, this time someone was looking and this is what happens.

Seraphim said:

2"?
ahow long do you think it would take to snap off a razors edge? 2" of incorrect stroke may be all it takes?

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but doc took pics of the entire edge and it was toe to heel all crumbled up. I took one pass that at best covered half the blade. But, the other edges that Frank did (the Henry Sears & Rangoon) definitely were damaged by a poor angle. We don't have the benefit of the same magnification, same camera, etc., to really make a comparison there, but I know it definitely was chipped up so I have no doubt it happened.

Or perhaps you simply need a JNat finished edge. That usually solves most problems.

Click to expand...

Well I know this is not film's fault, it's mine. If I had done this on a stone I would have had a ruined edge and a ruined stone. All this was good though, and it gave me an idea about film vs JNat that should start a good argument. I'm not gonna post that yet.

I know film will give me a good edge if I do my part, and I'll continue to practice on some 'Bay razors that were purchased just for that. I will not however continue to try to learn straight shaving AND honing at the same time - at least not where one is dependant upon the other.

Gotta tell you guys, if it were not for people like Bill, Frank, and Alfredo and countless others on B&B, I would have gone back to carts a long time ago. No matter how much we may bicker about the small things like Coti vs Film vs JNat, we're all part of a very small Fraternity.

Carts shave fine too if you use a good soap, skin stretching and multiple passes

Seraphim said:

Carts shave fine too if you use a good soap, skin stretching and multiple passes

Click to expand...

True ... the last time I priced Mach 3 carts I nearly fell over. That was the day I searched for something less expensive and I think it was LadyKate that gave me my first DE. The rest is history.

I could certainly get an acceptable shave knowing what I know now even with a cart - the thing is I have grown to like the ritual, the serenity, that comes from the routine. That is the same sort of attitude I need to learn to apply to my honing so I don't rush through.

aephilli said:

I think pressure is my problem, too. Next thing I'm gonna try is holding it by the far end of the scales so that literally only the weight of the blade and scales is on the blade.
That's how desperate I am to figure this out.

Click to expand...

That doesn't work, but holding it by thumb and 2 fingers in the middle of the scales does. Will have to look further into this technique.

aephilli said:

That doesn't work, but holding it by thumb and 2 fingers in the middle of the scales does. Will have to look further into this technique.

Click to expand...

I am obviously not an expert (as evidenced by this thread) but I think holding it by the scales might be a bad thing with vintage scales. You don't want to put any pressure in that direction on scales. Of course if you have a set of vintage ivory scales that you are afraid to break that's one way to make sure you are VERY careful.

The "listening apprentice" in me says to do it as you are supposed to, until you get it right. At least that's my plan.

So here's the rest of my musings:

Current wisdom has edges created by film at least as sharp as those created by stones. The only blind test I know of has the stone edge being more comfortable. If we take that as gospel, we still need to figure out why. When I look at those edges side by side the difference (leaving aside the chipping) is profound. The lapping film creates a mirror finish where the stones always seem to have a matte finish. Take these examples, one done by me (I picked the one with the least amount of chipping to be less distracting) and one done by doc:



Therefore my hypothesis is if there is a difference between the two methods it must lie in not the edge but the surface created on the bevel. Take for instance golf ball: A golf ball has dimples so that it may slide through the air better. Without them the air affects the ball more, sticking to it, and causing it to be less precise and go much less far. Mythbusters I think it was also did an experiment where they covered a car in dimples, same result, gas mileage went up.

For a more profound example: take two pieces of glass, wet them, and stick them together. They are almost glued together where if you use frosted glass for instance they slide much more easily. If you apply that to the razor, it will take more effort to move a smooth bevel against the skin than that of a "frosted" bevel. Maybe it allows more water to move around, maybe it allows the soap a place to channel (a micro comb?) but it does make sense. Less effort means less skin friction means less irritation.

So does this mean that stones win? No I don’t think so, at least not out of hand. I think it might mean however that going to a 0.3µ film might not be in our best interest for pure comfort. Or maybe it means that a quick swipe on 1µ after 0.3µ might be a differentiator? The current wisdom holds that paper underneath the last grit is a positive contributor. Because of the small amount of give in the paper backing, this may provide enough of a difference to create a secondary micro bevel in the very polished edge which helps to break that surface tension between the mirror finish and the skin.

There's also another interesting biot of info here. While reading everything I could find on honing I stumbled across a thought that unfortunately at this time I cannot source (maybe the original poster is a B&B member and will speak up). The hypothesis is that scratches lead to micro-chipping even when it looks like they have been honed out. Let's look at that pic again, this time with some editing:



It makes for an interesting argument doesn't it? I may have put those deep gouges in with let's say the DMT and not spent enough time at successive grits to really work out the underlying damage. That plus my terrible form at honing AND shaving is more than likely a perfect storm.