Thanks for this art of shaving lecture !
So, what is the steep angle?
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- #82
I'm not sure if that's the way to go, using pressure.
I can only tell you about my experience with the R41. If you just let the razor rest on your face using a steep angle, you can feel the blade, no pressure needed, just let it rest on the skin.
I'd think applying pressure to achieve a steeper angle is a bad idea, but as I said I'm not familiar with the ATT razors.
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- #83
We're glad you found it interesting.
Edgar - this is my experience with the ATT R/H plates. No pressure = happy, pressure = not so happy
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- #85
Thanks for your input, David. That's what I thought, but couldn't say for sure how it works with the ATTs.
Thanks for your input, David. That's what I thought, but couldn't say for sure how it works with the ATTs.
Well, I had to try it didn't I?
This morning I used an extra-steep angle with pressure, using my ATT Atlas H1.
It seems similar in concept to Woodfluter's Guide to Low Angle Shaving, where you hit a more shallow angle by applying pressure.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/280833-Low-Angle-Shaving-Illustrated
Basically, I had the handle almost parallel to the skin, and then I pressed (lightly) until I could just feel the blade, and hear it cutting. Short strokes, paying close attention to the pressure and keeping the angle very steep. It felt like the angle of the H1 provided something of a buffer to the pressure, which looking at the photos above, might be different than what an R41 would offer?
It seemed a little harder to use this technique on my chin, but everywhere else seemed fine. The pressure seemed to help in popping up the hairs, and increased the efficiency of shave. Much of my face was BBS in a single pass. I did get one small weeper, but it stopped bleeding by itself before I had finished my routine. Hours later, I would say that even on the first try, it produced almost as little irritation as it would have with no pressure, and certainly worked better for me than a shallow angle shave with my H1.
I'll report back after more experimentation.
Cheers,
Shawn
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I had been enjoying steep angle shaves with my 39C and 2013 R41.......I had been waiting, for more than a year, to pull the trigger on an ATT. I bought the R2.
I tried the steep angle with the ATT R2, and for me, (YMMV, of course), I thought I had made a $185 dollar mistake! My first shaves were Awful......I almost posted it on the BST.
Tried it, one last time, just let the top cap set the angle, and, well, I frequently enjoy my R2. That's why I said the steep angle works for me, using the 39C and R41.....but nothing else,.......at the moment,...............yet.........................
I tried the steep angle with the ATT R2, and for me, (YMMV, of course), I thought I had made a $185 dollar mistake! My first shaves were Awful......I almost posted it on the BST.
Tried it, one last time, just let the top cap set the angle, and, well, I frequently enjoy my R2. That's why I said the steep angle works for me, using the 39C and R41.....but nothing else,.......at the moment,...............yet.........................
Just to clarify, my (still being tested) theory is that with pressure requires a steep-er angle ... significantly steeper than I would normally use with a no-pressure steep angle shave.
Again, just a theory though....
Depends how we define these things. As the blade is often exposed beyond the plane of skin (tangential between cap and bar) one can simply push the blade directly into one's face without changing angle. But if you want to go steeper than steep (steeper than the plane from blade edge to safety bar), you've gotta drive your skin into the blade gap or push the bar into your face, changing the local area of the skin plane (but then technically the blade angle hasn't changed for that local skin surface). Fun experiments, all.
I'm obviously not an artist, but I've attempted to illustrate what I'm thinking might occur with steep angle plus pressure....
ATT H1 at steep angle without pressure (the skin is yellow):
And ATT H1 at steep angle with pressure (the skin is blue):
Do you think the skin might bend in such a manner that the blade angle (relative to the skin directly in the path of the blade) might be even steeper than without pressure?
Just a theory....
Cheers,
Shawn
I tried in on my inner arm right below the elbow this morning ... and you're right. The slant of the skin's indentation from the safety bar extends well past the blade ... making the cutting angle with pressure much more similiar (if not identical) to without pressure than I had pictured.
I'll do this again, and try to post a corrected diagram this evening.
Cheers!
Shawn
Very interesting Shawn! On further consideration, part of my problem is looser skin that cones with (ahem) maturity. It's easy for my skin to get caught in the gap and get sliced or skinned. I get more comfortable shaves using shallow angle than steep angle with pressure.
Guess this is another example of YMMV.
Guess this is another example of YMMV.
The photo illustration above is probably a better representation of the ATT H1 used at a steep angle with pressure applied. As alexface pointed out above, the skin might become more taught with pressure ... but the angle isn't really increased/steeper since the indentation of the safety guard extends well past the blade.
Shawn,
Just go to the R41 it's a little more aggressive than the H1/2 and doesn't require dangerous pressure experiments.
Also please leave your razors to me in your will.
Thanks,
Curt
Hi all,
Thanks for the great post..I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I also took delivery of a new R41 Grande yesterday..
So now I have to tell you about my first (cautious) shave this morning.
I had been using the R89 Grande, but thought that I might try something a bit more aggressive.
After 4 Months with an R89 :
Even with a 3 pass WTG, XTG, ATG, I could still feel a bit of stubble in certain directions and spots, even after touch-ups, and this bothered me. (I had even gone to 4 passes and my beard is not thick.)
I must admit I was cautious and did lots of research on the R41 threads before getting one.
I have been using feathers in my R89 and decided to stick with them in the R41.
(I believe in the "sharp tool" theory.)
OK... here we go.
Using Prorazo cream, I did a 3 pass WTG, XTG, XTG shave..
(I thought I would be careful and wait a day or so before trying against the grain)
The result:
The BEST BBS shave I have ever had in my 4 months of DE shaving. (& Zero cuts.)
You can definitely feel that the blade is resting on your skin, and the angle is steeper than the R89. (the handle is closer to the face) but it is a GOOD feeling..
I use sound as one of my main feedback senses when shaving - I NEVER leave the water running.
With the R41 you can hear exactly what it is doing.. I even tried a very steep, almost perpendicular angle as some have advised here on the forums. I was able to vary the angle a great degree with the R41 and it would still work fine - much more so than the closed comb R89. - very nice.
Of course I tried to remember to use good technique with this razor, wrist locked, and the proper angle picture in my head.
I took my time.
It worked Magnificently.
The R89 goes in the drawer, & "the beast" is my new "go to" razor.
I absolutely LOVE this thing. I do not even need an ATG pass. (although I will use one soon)
Thanks to all for your helpful info on B&B.
I am SO glad I decided to try this razor!
Joe
Thanks for the great post..I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I also took delivery of a new R41 Grande yesterday..
So now I have to tell you about my first (cautious) shave this morning.
I had been using the R89 Grande, but thought that I might try something a bit more aggressive.
After 4 Months with an R89 :
Even with a 3 pass WTG, XTG, ATG, I could still feel a bit of stubble in certain directions and spots, even after touch-ups, and this bothered me. (I had even gone to 4 passes and my beard is not thick.)
I must admit I was cautious and did lots of research on the R41 threads before getting one.
I have been using feathers in my R89 and decided to stick with them in the R41.
(I believe in the "sharp tool" theory.)
OK... here we go.
Using Prorazo cream, I did a 3 pass WTG, XTG, XTG shave..
(I thought I would be careful and wait a day or so before trying against the grain)
The result:
The BEST BBS shave I have ever had in my 4 months of DE shaving. (& Zero cuts.)
You can definitely feel that the blade is resting on your skin, and the angle is steeper than the R89. (the handle is closer to the face) but it is a GOOD feeling..
I use sound as one of my main feedback senses when shaving - I NEVER leave the water running.
With the R41 you can hear exactly what it is doing.. I even tried a very steep, almost perpendicular angle as some have advised here on the forums. I was able to vary the angle a great degree with the R41 and it would still work fine - much more so than the closed comb R89. - very nice.
Of course I tried to remember to use good technique with this razor, wrist locked, and the proper angle picture in my head.
I took my time.
It worked Magnificently.
The R89 goes in the drawer, & "the beast" is my new "go to" razor.
I absolutely LOVE this thing. I do not even need an ATG pass. (although I will use one soon)
Thanks to all for your helpful info on B&B.
I am SO glad I decided to try this razor!
Joe
- Thread starter
- #95
Joe, welcome to B&B!
I'm glad you found all this info useful!
I'm not sure if you have seen also this thread: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/396334-Zookeepers-of-the-Muhle-R41-BEAST , plenty of useful info in there as well, many of the R41 lovers share their experiences there, give advice, etc ...
Feel free to join us at the Zoo, and of course, if you have any doubts/questions we're here to help.
Congrats on the great results!
I thought about this, yesterday, right before eating my evening meal. (It may have been said already, sorry if it has)
If you have ever over-toasted a piece of bread and used a knife to scrape off the burnt part, you were, most likely, using a steep angle.
Happy New Year you steep-angle-junkies!!
.........................................................................................................
If you have ever over-toasted a piece of bread and used a knife to scrape off the burnt part, you were, most likely, using a steep angle.
Happy New Year you steep-angle-junkies!!
.........................................................................................................
The burnt toast analogy makes me never want to use a steep angle again! Ouch! Actually, I have always preferred a slightly shallower angle.
I thought about this, yesterday, right before eating my evening meal. (It may have been said already, sorry if it has)
If you have ever over-toasted a piece of bread and used a knife to scrape off the burnt part, you were, most likely, using a steep angle.
Happy New Year you steep-angle-junkies!!
This observation is precisely true. And the reason is that in the use of that knife you were attempting to SCRAPE OFF burnt parts of the toast.
If, on the other hand, you were trying to apply butter to perfectly cooked toast, you would likely use a SHALLOW angle.
Which way does the most damage to the surface of the toast?
I rest my case for shallow angle shaving.
- Thread starter
- #100
This observation is precisely true. And the reason is that in the use of that knife you were attempting to SCRAPE OFF burnt parts of the toast.
If, on the other hand, you were trying to apply butter to perfectly cooked toast, you would likely use a SHALLOW angle.
Which way does the most damage to the surface of the toast?
I rest my case for shallow angle shaving.
It's understandable that you don't understand since you've never tried it. Keep in mind that most razors do not work with a steep angle, but that has been explained countless times.
FYI, many people report less irritation using a steep angle. In the end it's a YMMV thing.
