Stroppary

mglindo · Jun 20, 2014

bluesman 7 said:
I think the variability of stropping nuance from person to person, along with the subjectivity of "the feel of the shave", makes that question unanswerable. Personally, I don't think I would be able to tell the difference from an edge that was a dozen shaves away from the hone or balsa and CrOx. Most new shavers would have a hard time getting a high number of shaves between touch ups with just clean strops. Suffice to say that many people are happy with edges maintained with pasted paddles or pasted hanging strops and finished on clean strops for long periods of time. Some use the pastes only infrequently and others after every shave.

I guess I was trying to say was that the shave was ok but the "feel of the shave" was not where it could be. I guess this would be the time for a refresh. If that did not work ? then complete honeing.

Thanks to all. Very interesting. I have read here on another thread that some people can go a very long time between honing just doing refreshes on their razors. How long can that go on? Indefinitely?

bluesman 7 · Jun 20, 2014

mglindo said:
I guess I was trying to say was that the shave was ok but the "feel of the shave" was not where it could be. I guess this would be the time for a refresh. If that did not work ? then complete honeing.

Thanks to all. Very interesting. I have read here on another thread that some people can go a very long time between honing just doing refreshes on their razors. How long can that go on? Indefinitely?

I would include the "feel of the shave" with "shaving well" so I think we are in agreement. In any case it is a subjective determination.

I'm pretty sure that some people have gone decades with just strops and touchups. Not saying that it is normal, that it would suit, or even be possible for everyone, or that doing it would entail sacrifice either. There are a lot of variables. If the edge develops a chip, you are going to re hone it, whether you have 1 shave or 40 on it since it was honed. I would say that expecting to go indefinitely would be a mistake, but it could happen.

mglindo · Jun 20, 2014

Thanks to all. Much to ponder.

Oscroft · Jun 21, 2014

mglindo said:
I have read here on another thread that some people can go a very long time between honing just doing refreshes on their razors. How long can that go on? Indefinitely?

That's a very good question, and I really don't know the answer.

But my grandfather (who, I'm very pleased to say, gave me his set of seven razors more than 30 years ago), went 40 or 50 years with (as far as I know) just a single stone for honing and lots of stropping. His razors still have very little wear, which suggests he really didn't hone very often.

bluesman 7 · Jul 1, 2014

Update:

The razor that prompted this thread has 40 shaves and counting on clean strops as of 6/28/14.

Lineman · Jul 2, 2014

Got 38 shave on my straight America razor stropping on leather alone. Now it needs a touch up but I think its more my fault then the razor fond a nick in my my strop that wasn't there before and I know there was a few time my last shave my angle was to high. So will touch it up and see how far I can go again with out messing it up lol. But I'm happy 2 months in and getting 90-95% BBS shaves omost every time.

LBussy · Jul 2, 2014

Bluesman asked me to post one of my questions from another thread here:

"Okay ... so here's a basic question: Can you over-strop? I mean before your arms wear out?"

My issue right now is how/why I am getting micro-chipping. The challenge of having less than 50 shaves under your belt and not having a father in the house with a quarter-century of experience, is that some of these really obvious issues are not all that obvious.

So, for me, I'm going to go put 100 laps on this blade and see if it tones it down.

bluesman 7 · Jul 2, 2014

"Okay ... so here's a basic question: Can you over-strop? I mean before your arms wear out?"

There is a thread where someone did 1000 laps on leather with magnified pictures every 100. They determined that there was no benefit after ~300 laps. However, the determination was all visual with no shave testing IIRC.

I have done 300-400 laps, alternating 50 hemp- 50 leather, with good results, on edges that were falling behind.

HonerSimpson · Jul 3, 2014

LBussy said:
Bluesman asked me to post one of my questions from another thread here:

My issue right now is how/why I am getting micro-chipping. The challenge of having less than 50 shaves under your belt and not having a father in the house with a quarter-century of experience, is that some of these really obvious issues are not all that obvious.

So, for me, I'm going to go put 100 laps on this blade and see if it tones it down.

Can you add some detail? How do you see the micro-chipping? Is this something that occurs with use?
I am wondering how large the chips are - what magnification do you need to see them, how much honing does it take to remove them?

If I look at a blade that I have used about 7 times, I will usually find 1 or 2 microchips with a 10x loupe, almost always near the toe. I recall one TI blade having 6 chips after about 10 shaves. I have a very coarse beard and assume that the cause of chipping is the high angles I need to use around the mustache. I general, I think that is a common experience, that high angles deteriorate the edge at an accelerated rate. At the same time, I am not convinced these few chips have any effect, other than accompanying the normal deterioration of the edge with use.

Stropping on linen with too much pressure also causes micro-chipping but it is not visible without much higher magnification. I also believe that stropping on leather is a self-limiting process, once the bevel is coated with strop oil, the stropping has little effect.

LBussy · Jul 3, 2014

HonerSimpson said:
Can you add some detail? How do you see the micro-chipping? Is this something that occurs with use?
I am wondering how large the chips are - what magnification do you need to see them, how much honing does it take to remove them?

An 80x mini-microscope. I don;t know how much honing it will take but I assume not a whole lot because these are smaller than the scratches I failed to remove from some of the previous grits (I need to do better about that!).

I have a very coarse beard and assume that the cause of chipping is the high angles I need to use around the mustache. I general, I think that is a common experience, that high angles deteriorate the edge at an accelerated rate.

That's the second time someone's mentioned to me a steep angle. I tried again this morning with a very narrow angle, I'll see if it helps.

I also believe that stropping on leather is a self-limiting process, once the bevel is coated with strop oil, the stropping has little effect.

I've never added oil to my strop - is that common? I know it's sold but I figure good leather is not going to need it.

HonerSimpson · Jul 3, 2014

LBussy said:
An 80x mini-microscope. I don;t know how much honing it will take but I assume not a whole lot because these are smaller than the scratches I failed to remove from some of the previous grits (I need to do better about that!).

If these chips that result from low grit scratches, that indicates insufficient honing at the 4k level. Contrary to stories sometimes told, bevel setting is not complete until the 4k level.
The microchips I get from use/abuse are visible with a 5x loupe.

LBussy said:
I've never added oil to my strop - is that common? I know it's sold but I figure good leather is not going to need it.

If there is no oil, the leather would be dry. The oil transferred from rubbing your palm on the strop should be sufficient.
I put a tiny bit of strop dressing on my daily strop recently after more than a year of use.

BDF · Jul 4, 2014

Interesting post.

As we have discussed before, my favorite strop material is the inside of a veg. tanned horse- hide strop. I did not mean to use it that way but a sudden bout of 'stropping dislexia' forced me to remove the entire surface fo the strop. So what I ended up with is sorta', kinda' a split hide strop but made from horse hide rather than steer hide.

I have just finished a few months of using the strop with carnauba wax worked well into the surface. It was OK at first but then seemed to just stop working- a gazillion (technical term) laps would have no effect on the razor. So just yesterday I again sanded the surface off the strop and soaked it with Zymol cleaner- it is working very well again. It is also making a fair amount of noise when stropping; with the wax on it it was just about silent.

As far as using the flesh side, once it is sanded down enough to be smooth, I think it is pretty much the inside of the hide being used anyway. In other words, again a split- hide strop. The only different stropping surface that I believe we even have a choice of using is the surface or top hide, which is what most strops use rather they are steer hide (English Bridle) or horse hide. But like you, I prefer the inside of the hide to the surface or skin side.

Brian

bluesman 7 said:
The following is copied from my response on another thread where the OP was asking about using the flesh side of the leather. It seemed relevant on this thread also;

I wondered this same thing. The flesh side of leather is different. I have been experimenting with the flesh side of an old cowhide belt. I sanded the leather up to 600 grit, then worked in some pure carnauba wax from a block, and then 'boned' the leather with the bottom corner of a drinking glass to compact the leather fibers. I'm pretty sure this is what Russian split leather strops are. I have one razor that I strop on this exclusively, along with a hemp fiber strop, to see what the long term effects are compared to my other razors that are stropped on a vintage horse hide and hemp strops.

Tomorrow's shave will be the 17th on this test razor since I started using the 'split leather strop' and the 24th since the razor was honed. Nothing but clean natural fiber and leather strops since honing. The razor is very keen and smooth. I consider the 'split leather' experiment a complete success and would not hesitate to use it on all of my razors except for the fact that my vintage horse hide is also very pleasurable to use and far more attractive hanging in the bathroom than an old belt. The 'split leather' is more aggressive than the HH and when I have a razor that isn't getting sharp on the HH I bring out the 'split leather'.

bluesman 7 · Jul 4, 2014

BDF said:
It was OK at first but then seemed to just stop working- a gazillion (technical term) laps would have no effect on the razor.

Brian

I have not noticed this with my split leather. I'm in the habit of rubbing it with the damp corner of a towel, followed by a vigorous rub with a dry towel after each use. Perhaps this keeps down the glaze.

bluesman 7 · Jul 4, 2014

BDF said:
But like you, I prefer the inside of the hide to the surface or skin side.

Brian

I got the idea from you!

BDF · Jul 4, 2014

Yep, that is probably the difference right there- after buffing the dry wax on the strop, I did not touch it with anything but razors. And you are exactly right about the surface too, it was very highly glazed. It was a fast strop though.... fast and useless

Brian

bluesman 7 said:
I have not noticed this with my split leather. I'm in the habit of rubbing it with the damp corner of a towel, followed by a vigorous rub with a dry towel after each use. Perhaps this keeps down the glaze.

bluesman 7 · Jul 5, 2014

Thought I would link Doc226's epic thread here for those unfamiliar with it;http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/296942-How-Many-Shaves?highlight=

I nicked my strop today with the razor that has 41 shaves on it. Hopefully I did not damage the edge. Around 300 straight shaves in, and this is the first time I've nicked a strop.

bluesman 7 · Jul 7, 2014

The split leather experimental razor is my Monday razor. Today's shave was fine but the edge felt less keen than I like. HHT showed that the toe was not as sharp as the rest of the edge. This is probably because the experimental strop, being made from an old belt, is only 1.5" wide and I normally do an exaggerated X stroke that gives the toe a little less love. I did 7 sets of 50 hemp/ 50 split leather concentrating on the toe with an HHT after each set to check progress and got the toe back up to speed.

BDF · Jul 30, 2014

I tried a tiny amount of Dovo's leather fat on my 'split horse hide' strop and that was a disaster- the drag went up beyond Latigo :-( So I sanded the surface down to get to fresh leather and gave that a couple of coatings of leather cream (conditioner that I think is wax based). It worked fantastic for about a week and then started to glaze again; remembering your post, I gave it a quick wipe with a damp towel and sure enough- the drag went up a bit as well as the sound from the razor when stopping. The difference on the edge was immediate and very noticeable. It seems like it lifts the fibers of the leather or something but whatever it does, it works pretty well. I will continue to use it this way and hit it with the damp towel every few days and see how it goes.

Brian

bluesman 7 said:
I have not noticed this with my split leather. I'm in the habit of rubbing it with the damp corner of a towel, followed by a vigorous rub with a dry towel after each use. Perhaps this keeps down the glaze.

bluesman 7 · Jul 30, 2014

I've noticed a slight bit of a set back a few shaves after honing where the edge seems to be a little less keen than right off the hones. Continued shaving and stropping with the same edge brings it back to a very high keenness that feels smoother than the first shaves off of the hones. Perhaps more stropping before the first shave would eliminate this slight dip followed by an improvement in performance.

Anyone else notice this?

Lineman · Jul 30, 2014

bluesman 7 said:
I've noticed a slight bit of a set back a few shaves after honing where the edge seems to be a little less keen than right off the hones. Continued shaving and stropping with the same edge brings it back to a very high keenness that feels smoother than the first shaves off of the hones. Perhaps more stropping before the first shave would eliminate this slight dip followed by an improvement in performance.

Anyone else notice this?

yes i have I have learned to strop about 200 LAPS on clean leather after the stones helps this out.

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